1.5 Million Missing Black Men • Hacker News Board

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#231

Post by hbhakhra » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:35 PM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #150

fecklessyouth wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that boys need exposure to women before adulthood, with the exception of their mother, is a relatively modern one. The extent to which the modern west mixes the sexes through education and other social activities is unprecedented, so the Middle East is not nearly alone in this respect. Of course, things change in adulthood, and if young Middle Eastern men who would normally be entering stable relationships w…

> The idea that boys need exposure to women before adulthood, with the exception of their mother, is a relatively modern one. The extent to which the modern west mixes the sexes through education and other social activities is unprecedented, so the Middle East is not nearly alone in this respect. That's true, but if the prosperity and peace of the modern west also are relatively modern and unusual, perhaps the exposu…

There have been so many factors that have changed in relatively modern times, that this is one time to say correlation doesn't equal causation.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#232

Post by whatsgood22 » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:38 PM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #181

javert wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US we had segregation, not apartheid. There is a difference. As a white man living in the South, we still have segregation in practice. I rarely had interaction with blacks because they did different things and took different classes at school. We all went to the same schools---just didn't have the same classes or have the same social circles. Not much shared in the way of culture. I have had some black friend…

> There is nothing white people can do to fix this. Blacks have always decided what kind of culture they want to have and they will continue to do so. This is so clearly untrue that I wonder if it's worth pointing out the obvious. In fact, black-skinned Americans rarely have had the option of self-determination, and mostly that is due to white-skinned contemporaries who enslaved them, forced them into ghettos, segreg…

This is a bunch of anecdotal bullshit, crime rate statistics paint a much different picture

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#233

Post by haberman » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:39 PM UTC

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #222

haberman wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Presumably large, racially discriminatory social programs and cultural programming such as have been tried for the last 40 years are called for to remedy the problem. There are plenty of obvious things that need fixing, even if you don't believe at all in affirmative action-like programs: 1. Clear conflicts of interest in the criminal justice system, like regular prosecutors being responsible for bringing charges a…

> The unjustifiable war on drugs, which disproportionately affects black communities. See, this gets to the heart of the matter. I personally think the war on drugs is very stupid, but the data indicates that it does not disproportionately affect blacks. Blacks use drugs at much higher rates than whites and blacks distribute drugs at even higher rates than whites. The prosecutions for narcotics crimes are by all indi…

> It may be dumb law, but it's not racist.

I didn't say it was racist. I said it disproportionately affects blacks. Even if it were true that blacks use drugs at higher rates than whites (and this is disputed: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-dr...), reversing an unjustifiable war that affects blacks the most would be a step towards fixing the problem.

> If you think there's a racist conspiracy I dare you to prove it.

I don't think there's a conspiracy. Few people believe that cops get together and make evil plans about how they can treat black people unjustly.

Here's a bigger point though: I mentioned three things that are clearly broken today, and which fixing would work towards repairing some of the problems we are experiencing today. And instead of finding common ground there, you focused on rebutting an accusation of "conspiracy" -- an accusation I didn't even make.

That, right there, is why we collectively spin our wheels and never really get anywhere.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#234

Post by rayiner » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:40 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #227

random_pr wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because it isn't obviously racist. you can't just say "more african americans and hispanics are arrested than whites or asians, therefore, police are targeting african americans and hispanics unfairly." that's not how it works. wrt. drug-related crimes, sure, there seems to be a weird disparity (does it take into account 'casual' drug users vs. 'hardcore' drug users?). wrt. violent crime, however, the percent of arre…

i would agree with you if most prisoners were not there on drug charges, or if black Americans didn't spend as much time in prison as violent criminals. http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/prisons_and_drugs#sthash.OPr... It is blatantly , flagrantly institutionally racist. > (Number Of People Serving Time For Drug Offenses In US Prisons) > Federal: "Between 2001 and 2013, more than half of prisoners serving sentences of…

The vast majority of people in prison for drug offenses are in there for dealing, not using. So the point about blacks and whites using at the same rate is a red herring.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#235

Post by soheil » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:40 PM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #86

soheil wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this belong in HN? And have you looked at what those countries been put through by us? It's easy to believe media propaganda, but are you doing yourself or the world a favor by willfully ignoring the real geo-political reasons that caused so many crises in those regions?

Can you explain geo political reasons that lead to stoning for infidelity?

Surely we're not just pointing out flaws, but drawing conclusions based on causation. To cast such a wide net and attribute their misfortune to malice when there are so many plausible arguments for why that is is willful ignorance.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#236

Post by caseysoftware » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:41 PM UTC

michaelchisari wrote: post #49

gonehome wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading somewhere (probably here) that the same effect is shown in areas with heavily skewed male/female ratios in general. That in places with a lot more men than women both men and women converge on wanting a long term relationship, but in places with a lot more women than men - men would typically prefer not having a relationship i.e. more single mothers in NYC than on the west coast. There was also a s…

in places with a lot more men than women both men and women converge on wanting a long term relationship, but in places with a lot more women than men There's also the narrative that places where men outnumber women, men become increasingly competitive and violent towards women and each other. An example is any blue collar "boom" town like North Dakota's fracking industry.

Do you have a source on that? I haven't heard of any analysis on this front.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#237

Post by hindsightbias » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:41 PM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #203

at-fates-hands wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure no geo-political reasons cause many middle eastern societies to treat woman lower than dogs and cats. Those my friend, are religious and cultural norms put in place by their own people. No amount of external pressure has ceased the ungodly treatment of woman, homosexuals and other "miscreants" as they are deemed in much of the middle east.

> I'm pretty sure no geo-political reasons cause many middle eastern societies to treat woman lower than dogs and cats. The U.S. and western powers keep the conservative Middle Eastern dictatorships in place, preventing any social and political reform. That is, in fact, a major cause of resentment by people of the Middle East toward the West. In fact, Al Qaeda's goal is to overthrow the Middle Eastern dictatorships (…

It's a major cause of resentment, but that doesn't mean they've thought it out. I'd argue that the US has been a socially moderating force, not that that was intentional or a US goal.

I don't think there's any evidence Iraq, Libya, Egypt (under Morsi), Syria (under whatever remains) and eventually KSA are going to end up with better treatment for women when all their political reform is over.

Iraq under Saddam was more secular - women's rights to vote, education and political office went back to the 70's. In some areas, they may be holding on, but overall I doubt they'll end up being better off.

Egypt had a huge social/political change, and democracy meant a MB majority. Now they're back with Mubarak-lite (and they all blame the US for abandoning Egypt to the MB).

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#238

Post by munificent » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:45 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #194

fecklessyouth wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that boys need exposure to women before adulthood, with the exception of their mother, is a relatively modern one. The extent to which the modern west mixes the sexes through education and other social activities is unprecedented, so the Middle East is not nearly alone in this respect. Of course, things change in adulthood, and if young Middle Eastern men who would normally be entering stable relationships w…

The major restraining factor on young men in a village or tribal setting was always the rest of the village. When the demographics became unbalanced (war, famine) then young gangs were always to be feared (Peter Pans lost boys would not have been cute) We are fortunate in having overcome hunger in 4/5ths of the world - but it has left a lot of time on people's hands compared to a hunter gather lifestyle and a lot of…

> We are fortunate in having overcome hunger in 4/5ths of the world - but it has left a lot of time on people's hands compared to a hunter gather lifestyle and a lot of unsupervised time similarly

Actually, some studies have shown that hunter-gatherers have much more free time than we do. Our wants grow more quickly than our technology can satisfy them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_affluent_society

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#239

Post by brandonmenc » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:45 PM UTC

hn_ wrote: post #110

brandonmenc wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also completely ignores the fact that people in the black communities may not wish to date people from other races. I think it's more the other way around. My observation, and I believe this is backed up by research, is that black women are more willing to date outside their race than other races are willing to date black women. But yeah, people generally date within their race.

I got curious and did a real quick google scholar search. The opposite is true. https://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1533-8525.2008.01135.x >The theory of African American alienation is upheld, as African Americans are generally less willing to interracially date than other races and are especially less willing to date European Americans.

Not being able to read the study, it's not clear that it refutes my statement:

> black women are more willing to date outside their race than other races are willing to date black women

because both that statement and, "African Americans are generally less willing to interracially date than other races," could be true simultaneously.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#240

Post by chaostheory » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:46 PM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #36

dataker wrote: post #19

Will this have an effect on U.S diversity ? In a way, it may foster more interracial relationships on affected areas

I can't find the study to cite, but if I remember correctly an old study found that while most males of all ethnicities are open to relationships with females of different ethnicities given attractive qualities are sufficient (I could be wrong but only physical attraction was measured in this study); they found that most females tend to only go for males within their own ethnic group. The exception was Asian women wi…

I found a reference to the study: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/20...

"Another clear gender divide, this one less expected, emerged in our findings on racial preferences, reported in a forthcoming article in the Review of Economic Studies. Women of all the races we studied revealed a strong preference for men of their own race: White women were more likely to choose white men; black women preferred black men; East Asian women preferred East Asian men; Hispanic women preferred Hispanic men. But men don't seem to discriminate based on race when it comes to dating. A woman's race had no effect on the men's choices."