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1.5 Million Missing Black Men

nytimes.com

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Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#191

Post by egillie »

mc32 wrote: post #156
michaelchisari wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in places with a lot more men than women both men and women converge on wanting a long term relationship, but in places with a lot more women than men There's also the narrative that places where men outnumber women, men become increasingly competitive and violent towards women and each other. An example is any blue collar "boom" town like North Dakota's fracking industry.

In china where men outnumber women due to family preference for a male heir, it has resulted in straight men having to compete with each other on an economic status basis to attract women, what happens in north Dakota is not a universal phenomenon.

It has also led to a sharp rise in kidnapping and trafficking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_women_of_China#Sex_traf...

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#192

Post by [deleted] »

foldr wrote: post #166
dmix wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the 18 countries considered part of the middle east have outputted their share of young men - especially if you rank the countries by population. And a significant percentage of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan were foreign fighters from middle eastern countries not central asia, particularly the leading figures. I believe most people on HN are aware extremists represent a small percentage of the total po…

That's missing the point. The question is what percentage of the countries in the Middle East are producing significant numbers of "jihdists".

[deleted]

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#193

Post by picks_at_nits »

omonra wrote: post #113
picks_at_nits wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I ready “Sorry to ____, but...” I wonder to myself: 1. Is the speaker truly appalled at saying the thing that follows, but it's a radical, earth-shattering insight will cut through the Gordian Knot, e.g. “I’m really sorry to question the Bible, but maybe the Earth actually is older than 6,000 years?” Or: 2. Someone’s warning detection is working, but the connection to the brake has been severed, and the spea…

The 'sorry' part referred to my comment sticking out like a sore thumb. Every other comment goes on about racism, etc - while I see a problem inherent in the subset of individuals themselves. It's a social thing - to prepare the reader for what may strike them as an unpleasant (yet I believe is true) perspective.

> It's a social thing - to prepare the reader for what may strike them as an unpleasant (yet I believe is true) perspective

I’m perfectly aware of what this is supposed to do on the surface, but I am sharing with you that there is a discrepancy between what you claim to be doing and how at least one person perceives what you are actually doing.

You may think that you’re preparing the reader for an unpleasant truth, but note that if what you were about to say was inarguably true, you could just say it and present the evidence. You yourself admit that it’s just a perspective, another way to say that it’s an opinion.

So by prefacing your perspective with a disclaimer that you know in advance that you are going to present an unpleasant perspective, what you’re saying is that you are going to be unpleasant, you know you are going to be unpleasant, and you know that this isn’t an uncomfortable but incontrovertible truth like the Bible not being literally true.

So what it comes down to is this: Instead of just giving an unpleasant perspective, you have given an unpleasant perspective AND told everyone that you know it’s unpleasant, know that it isn’t and incontrovertible truth, and are telling everyone any ways.

This drags yourself into the discussion. Instead of just thinking about your perspective, we are also asked to think about the fact that the perspective is unpleasant, why it is unpleasant, why you choose to share an unpleasant perspective, why you announce it to us, and so forth.

People might, for example, think that you say such things purely because you enjoy being controversial. Is that true? I don’t know! But when you tell me that you are bing controversial on top of actually being controversial, it’s certainly a reasonable thing to wonder.

Which is why I go back to what I suggested to you: If your perspective is worth sharing, just share it. Leave out the preparation. Don’t derail your point by inviting speculation as to why you’re sharing an unpleasant perspective if you know in advance its unpleasant.

I hope you understand that I’m trying to help you share your ideas--whether I agree with them or not--in the best possible and most constructive manner.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#194

Post by lifeisstillgood »

fecklessyouth wrote: post #67
dmix wrote: post #13

> The black women left behind find that potential partners of the same race are scarce, while men, who face an abundant supply of potential mates, don’t need to compete as hard to find one. As a result, Mr. Charles said, “men seem less likely to commit to romantic relationships, or to work hard to maintain them.” Interesting, I never thought about this side-effect of mass incarceration. Another aggravating factor in…

The idea that boys need exposure to women before adulthood, with the exception of their mother, is a relatively modern one. The extent to which the modern west mixes the sexes through education and other social activities is unprecedented, so the Middle East is not nearly alone in this respect. Of course, things change in adulthood, and if young Middle Eastern men who would normally be entering stable relationships w…

The major restraining factor on young men in a village or tribal setting was always the rest of the village. When the demographics became unbalanced (war, famine) then young gangs were always to be feared (Peter Pans lost boys would not have been cute)

We are fortunate in having overcome hunger in 4/5ths of the world - but it has left a lot of time on people's hands compared to a hunter gather lifestyle and a lot of unsupervised time similarly

That said - holy moley! this is insane!

But does this work for other sexual choice communities? I suppose there must have been class divides where "working class" men were more likely to go to jail so changing the sexual choice landscape? Gay men?! Ex-military? Prior to public transport was there geographic boundaries? Education?

This is a fascinating subject - why are black women limiting themselves to a reduced choice of black men when presumably other races are open? What is it that makes that choice / boundaries? Clearly parental type must have a big impact, but what else?

This is an indictment of US post-slavery culture to be sure, but thinking about it it is massively wider in scope.

Any pointers to research on this?

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#195

Post by hackuser »

_dark_matter_ wrote: post #117
SovietDissident wrote: post #68

Moynihan in 1965, writing at the Labor Dept.: "The steady expansion of welfare programs can be taken as a measure of the steady disintegration of the Negro family structure over the past generation in the United States." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_... The welfare state and the drug war have had devastating effects on the U.S. black population. To take just one statistic, when Moynihan…

The other reply is completely correct. You are misinterpreting what Moynihan meant when he wrote: >"The steady expansion of welfare programs can be taken as a measure of the steady disintegration of the Negro family structure over the past generation in the United States." What he meant was that, as we see a crumbling of black family structure, they will require greater help, which came through welfare. Here is the h…

The country's response to a crisis of the black American family was to imprison a large number of black males, adding another crisis to the situation.

Considering that and other forms of discrimination, it's amazing that the black middle-class has expanded so much.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#196

Post by canvia »

runako wrote: post #81
yummyfajitas wrote: post #17

The black women left behind find that potential partners of the same race are scarce,...The imbalance has also forced women to rely on themselves — often alone... There is a pretty obvious solution to this problem which has been legal since 1967. It works well and the babies come out really cute. Weird how the NYT glosses that over...

OKCupid has explored the topic of interracial dating repeatedly using their dataset. The most(?) recent results are here: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/race-attraction-2009-2014/ Relevant summary: Black women are subjected to substantial penalties in the dating market by men of other ethnicities. In fact, black women are the recipients of the highest inter-racial penalties of any racial pair measured by OkCupid.…

Perhaps there are other correlating factors such as obesity that tie into these disparities: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db131.htm

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#197

Post by vvpan »

Mizza wrote: post #47
dmix wrote: post #13

> The black women left behind find that potential partners of the same race are scarce, while men, who face an abundant supply of potential mates, don’t need to compete as hard to find one. As a result, Mr. Charles said, “men seem less likely to commit to romantic relationships, or to work hard to maintain them.” Interesting, I never thought about this side-effect of mass incarceration. Another aggravating factor in…

> women are arguably less war-prone than men I don't think are actually any studies that support this, unfortunately. War simply isn't a consequence of gender, it is a consequence of ideology and fear.

Well if you read anthropological literature you'll quickly find references to strong positive correlation between social status of women and peacefulness, and the inverse of course.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#198

Post by JoeAltmaier »

pyrocat wrote: post #170
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trouble is, it got that way one arrest at a time. Each one may seem defensible in isolation. Its only by looking at the statistics that the problem leaps out at you. So you noticed, and wrote a blog entry. What actionable plan can we suggest? Or will we just make more blog entries. I honestly don't have any answer.

Writing congress, writing your rep, fighting for police and justice reform, donating to the southern poverty law center http://www.splcenter.org/ and the ACLU.

Writing politicians: and what solution do THEY have? Isn't that more blogging? If we're to believe social and economic forces are to blame, then justice reform is way too late to be effective. What, we stop arresting criminals because 'its society's fault'? That's the hole we've gotten ourselves into.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#200

Post by dmix »

foldr wrote: post #166
dmix wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the 18 countries considered part of the middle east have outputted their share of young men - especially if you rank the countries by population. And a significant percentage of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan were foreign fighters from middle eastern countries not central asia, particularly the leading figures. I believe most people on HN are aware extremists represent a small percentage of the total po…

That's missing the point. The question is what percentage of the countries in the Middle East are producing significant numbers of "jihdists".

I would rank these middle eastern countries as the origin nationality of most jihadists.

High: Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt (most members of the original Al-Qaeda and current leader were Egyptian, and then there are Sinai groups)

Medium (mostly just financing since they have low populations and high income): United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Bahrain.

Low: Turkey (?), Jordan, Kuwait, Oman, Israel, Cyprus.

These are obviously based on nationalities of jihadists, not based on percentages of populations whom become jihadists - which I suspect you are confusing my comment as implying.

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