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Why Young Men Go to War

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Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#201

Post by orbifold »

return0 wrote: post #136
antocv wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> us techie boys (us because I am one), think that an M1 Abrams tank, a F-15 airplane or a Sig Sauer rifle are, well, cool. Speak for yourself only. As a child Ive seen artillery in action, MiGs XX dropping bombs close to basement "us techies" were hiding it, those things are not fucking cool. It would be so fun one day for you to experience an F15 dropping its load on your village or an M1 Abrams tank, firing its gu…

There is a big qualitative difference between the conflicts in Europe and the wars waged by America. Wars in europe are nationalistic, vicious and leave deep scars even decades later on. It's fair to say we still haven't recovered from the scars of the 2 WWs and are still suspicious of each other. The US army is worldwide police. Their soldiers are basically heavily armed "policemen" who execute missions in exotic co…

This heavily armed "policemen" line and that they are the "world police" is just the kind of propaganda the world should believe. There is no evidence that any of their wars, were actually fought with some noble goal in mind. In particular they are not some impartial law abiding, benevolent enforcer of rules, but break international law with reckless abandon. They also facilitate crimes of vicious dictatorships with covert and overt support.

American Sniper is the perfect example for how Hollywood presents wars. While some European and American intellectuals and artists doubted that after the Holocaust and WW II that any of that could be depicted without trivialization. Spielberg and others happily just did that.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#202

Post by Retric »

gaius wrote: post #196
Retric wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a ridiculous statement. Any sort of Group of people X is Y statement is very unlikely to be true, but this is more so than most. Western Journalists regularly risk life and limb for what they believe in. In many ways it's like saying the clergy are atheists sure some of them are, but there is strong !atheist selection pressure going on. EX: Let's cover an Ebola outbreak!

You appear to have skipped a word or two in what I wrote.

Like many people, I don't feel the need to defend politicians ;)

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#203

Post by happyscrappy »

orbifold wrote: post #197
happyscrappy wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the US were just like Euroweenies there would be no Europe.

You have a very poor grasp of history if you mistake the lessons learned out of two brutal world wars, not to mention the senseless history of violence that preceded it, with some kind of cowardice. Your viewpoint can probably be traced back to some notion of Anglo-Saxon supremacy, that by now has lost its racial undertones and lives on as the idea of American exceptionalism: That somehow the US is a gift to the worl…

It is easy to bash the US and is par for the course on HN but Europeans don't have to believe in Pax Americana to benefit from it. Do you think Poland would be able to relax if their defense was solely by Europeans?

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#204

Post by john_b »

Houshalter wrote: post #141
morpheous wrote: post #125

Not politically correct, but essentially the truth about human nature. These two statements: 1. “War is so compelling that you can even get a room full of pacifists to pay money to be entertained by it.”" 2. "“My sister is a complete and utter feminist and pacifist,” he explains. “She doesn’t see the irony. She’s participating in this wonderful festival … that’s reenacting a battle. Nobody reenacts the Treaty of Ghen…

I like watching disaster movies, yet do not support actual disasters.

Yet presumably you recognize them for the natural, if tragic, events that they are? One's support for or opposition to a force of nature is rather irrelevant.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#205

Post by Paradigma11 »

lgieron wrote: post #155
cmdkeen wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GW1 militarily was a huge success, Kuwait - a "five feet high nation" in the Lloyd George sense, was defended from aggression from its much bigger, nastier neighbour. The principal of territorial integrity was upheld. The strategic aims were upheld. It was our business, and should be our business. That's the whole point of things like the UN charter - remember there were a series of UN resolutions condemning the inva…

> The principal of territorial integrity was upheld. The strategic aims were upheld. Let's be honest, the US cares about those only in there's oil or other goodies involved (see the lack of response to the current situation in Ukraine, where there's little to gain and much to lose for the US).

What were the goodies in Afghanistan, Somalia or Kosovo?

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#206

Post by AYBABTME »

higherpurpose wrote: post #79
AYBABTME wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it callous? Why get in the army in the first place, if not to do the work of the army? I'd be hypocritical to join the army with the desire to then avoid operations. I can understand that people be against war. I don't like violence. I don't encourage violence and certainly do not enjoy wars. But wars exist and as a citizen, you can decide to wish that war magically weren't a thing, or do something about their…

Yet you're happy with going into the Iraq war because you were bored and wanted to do something "positive" with your life? You have no regrets about going into an immoral war that should never have happened?

I didn't go to Iraq, I went to Afghanistan.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#207

Post by IgorPartola »

brc wrote: post #148
IgorPartola wrote: post #142

This is pretty interesting. I have always thought of war as a political and economic phenomenon. Why try to get by with what you currently have when you can just take what your neighbor has? In some cases it's just cheaper to go beat someone up and get their lunch money than to earn your own. Junger is saying that war is really emergent behavior: young men are violent, so they are not just willing to go to war, but w…

The truth about Vietnam is that it is an unpopular war now, and towards the end of it, but when American involvement escalated in the beginning, support was pretty widespread. When thinking about war, it's better to exclude ww1 and ww2 from the sample as outliers. Of course they are the default war experience and the worst wars around, but they aren't typical. It's emergent behaviour - it has to be, as it is endemic…

Agreed with you re. Vietnam. That is a good point.

Not quite agreed on WWI/II. Lots of modern military and foreign policy is based on the aftermath of WWII. After all, that was the last war that the US was involved in. All the ones after that were "operations", and the US never formally declared war on another country since. They aren't typical, yet they are always the ones other wars are compared against.

So war is emergent behavior because some percentage of young men is always available to fight it, and because old men in power are more than willing to send the young men into war. That's at least two different behaviors we've identified so far.

Up until reading this article I had the point of view that war was just too cheap vs alternatives. Want land/power/oil/money/whatever? Just go and take it rather than building your own. And the solution is the opposite: make war expensive. Then again, neither our war on terror, nor the terror attacks on the US and its allies quite fit this paradigm.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#208

Post by WettowelReactor »

Htsthbjig wrote: post #114
rob_lh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be a callous viewpoint, but intent certainly matters. Just going to war to use your training is wholly callous. But take any of the recent genocides (Rwanda) or even ISIS - innocent people are unquestionably being killed. A soldier hears about this in the news, prepares every day to stop large forces like that, and instead is being asked to stand down. The media obviously plays a large role in shaping the pe…

"But take any of the recent genocides (Rwanda) or even ISIS - innocent people are unquestionably being killed." Yeah, take that. What you don't talk about is that what we call ISIS today was US best friend just months ago. They were called euphemistically "moderate rebels fighting for democracy in Syria" and they were supported economically and with weapons by the US and Saudi Arabia to kill innocent people there(and…

The situation is quite a bit more complicated and nuanced than how you present it here. The whole mess is made up of a plethora of parties with differing ideologies and priorities. Ascribing the formation of ISIS to the US lacks any real thought on the subject.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#209

Post by randcraw »

masswerk wrote: post #70

I think, going to war has much to do with the construction of the male gender. (We're talking seldom about the male side in the gender discourse, but we may be allowed to do so in this context. Please read the following cum grano salis.) In most cultures and societies males start life on the female side along their mothers. They are special, they are beloved, they are cared for – but they are also objects. When enter…

I was with you until you introduced the need for voluntary "disposability" on the part of males as a requisite to earn a place in society. I don't see self immolation in any form as being respected or admired, in the USA anyway.

I think all adult males don't inherit a natural place in society simply because they are males, the way that females do as mothers. Fatherhood just doesn't fill the bill comparably, perhaps because it's seen as only a part-time vocation. Thus a man must seek other ways to demonstrate his value.

Making lots of money or attaining power are perhaps the chief means to earning respect. But becoming a Warrior is widely seen as a good way to demonstrate the requisite desiderata -- leadership, courage, self sacrifice, inner strength, outer strength, loyalty, stoicism, a sense of purpose, a sense of honor, and more. Having more of these makes you more of a constructive contributor to society. You're a man among men.

Very few jobs or social roles can serve even a few of these components of character. Historically, going to war has been an established and respected way to demonstrate you are indeed made of sterner stuff.

Of course, if your war has a dubious justification or muddied purpose, that will complicate its ability somewhat to define you favorably. Aside from WWII and perhaps WWI, American wars since 1865 largely have been Faustian bargains. The fact that young Amercian men continue to enlist in the service of what are too often Wars of Opportunity indicates that, in our culture, alternative ways of proving your mettle have proven elusive.

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