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Why Young Men Go to War

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Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#191

Post by presidentender »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #137
pauleastlund wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying, but your tone here is pretty hostile here and you don't seem to acknowledge that the point you're making is in perfect agreement with the post you're responding to. You quoted him just before he said, "[This] is, of course, nonsense."

Did he edit his comment after you replied? I totally agree with what he said to GP: "don't include me in your 'we think war machines are cool.'" That's bad form in general, doubly so on this touchy subject.

Is a train cool? A Saturn V rocket? A 3d printer?

I think so.

The same factors that make machines cool remain intact regardless of the application. Furthermore, there's much more kinetic energy involved when you're trying to take something apart quickly than when you're trying to carefully build it, and more still when someone else is trying to keep the thing intact. Is a controlled demolition cool? If not, why do people watch?

Nobody is arguing in favor of violence. The comments here are recognizing some of the reasons why war seems cool, especially to the young and especially to men.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#192

Post by littletimmy »

67726e wrote: post #187
littletimmy wrote: post #88

It is frightening to see some people on this thread saying how they feel an urge to go to war because they "want to best other men" or "want to win". One way to counteract that could be actively practicing nullifying one's ego. Everyday, do one thing you really dislike, and stop doing one thing you really like and can do. People need to get over this ridiculous idea that all their desires must be sated.

Lacking context, that sure does sound scary, but it isn't thirst for bloodsport alone, but the added desire to stop those intent on doing the same to others, especially innocents. The notion of sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs.

A lot of that desire is basically buying into government propaganda, and that is even more problematic.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#193

Post by 67726e »

littletimmy wrote: post #192
67726e wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lacking context, that sure does sound scary, but it isn't thirst for bloodsport alone, but the added desire to stop those intent on doing the same to others, especially innocents. The notion of sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs.

A lot of that desire is basically buying into government propaganda, and that is even more problematic.

I don't buy into government propaganda to a large degree. I'm fiercely critical of my government. But you clearly have your preconceived notions, so I'll leave you to it.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#194

Post by Rapzid »

saiya-jin wrote: post #154
gaius wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the point where the majority of university students would never consider dating someone who went to the army But they would never consider dating street sweepers or shop workers or manual labourers either, or anyone else they see as beneath their social status as "university students", despite relying on those people every single day of their lives. It's pure class snobbery, and this is why many people hold "stude…

now sir, you got this one wrong. for intellectually based people (let's assume most college people are), dating with somebody you don't have that much to say is meaningless and frustrating experience. same goes for (most) guys too.

I'm not really sure what this has to do with street sweepers, shop workers, manual labourers, or military personnel? Would you care to elaborate?

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#195

Post by Retric »

saiya-jin wrote: post #154
gaius wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the point where the majority of university students would never consider dating someone who went to the army But they would never consider dating street sweepers or shop workers or manual labourers either, or anyone else they see as beneath their social status as "university students", despite relying on those people every single day of their lives. It's pure class snobbery, and this is why many people hold "stude…

now sir, you got this one wrong. for intellectually based people (let's assume most college people are), dating with somebody you don't have that much to say is meaningless and frustrating experience. same goes for (most) guys too.

The military attracts plenty of geniuses just like any other large organization. Simply by not admitting the least capable the Army ends up significantly higher IQ than the average high school. Meanwhile 39% of 18- to 24-year-olds and 65.9 of those who graduate high school were enrolled in college, so it's not all that selective.

PS: Yes, this means that large numbers of smart people don't think the way you do.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#196

Post by gaius »

Retric wrote: post #190
gaius wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post-modern Western journalists and politicians are spectacularly ill-equipped to understand and hence deal with, people who actually believe in something , whatever that thing may be.

That's a ridiculous statement. Any sort of Group of people X is Y statement is very unlikely to be true, but this is more so than most. Western Journalists regularly risk life and limb for what they believe in. In many ways it's like saying the clergy are atheists sure some of them are, but there is strong !atheist selection pressure going on. EX: Let's cover an Ebola outbreak!

You appear to have skipped a word or two in what I wrote.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#197

Post by orbifold »

happyscrappy wrote: post #188
orbifold wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily in most other developed western countries it carries no prestige to be part of the army outside of certain low income / right wing / uneducated circles. To the point where the majority of university students would never consider dating someone who went to the army. While there was still conscription, if you didn't chose to do alternative civil service, you were in the minority and considered suspect.

If the US were just like Euroweenies there would be no Europe.

You have a very poor grasp of history if you mistake the lessons learned out of two brutal world wars, not to mention the senseless history of violence that preceded it, with some kind of cowardice. Your viewpoint can probably be traced back to some notion of Anglo-Saxon supremacy, that by now has lost its racial undertones and lives on as the idea of American exceptionalism: That somehow the US is a gift to the world and not a country like any other.

The US is just such a young country that it simply either hasn't learned the lesson, or that any kind of political dissent is dissipated or ineffective. Personally I take humility over pride any time of the day.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#198

Post by Nimitz14 »

orbifold wrote: post #90
didibus wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The army is the reason young men go to war. That's what I infer from your comment at least. What other institution is so organized, so marketed, so respected, as the army? What other institution will take you in and dedicate the same level of attention and money in guiding you? What other institution does all the above with as low of a barrier to entry? To some extent, the army provides the same benefit as a cult. Th…

Luckily in most other developed western countries it carries no prestige to be part of the army outside of certain low income / right wing / uneducated circles. To the point where the majority of university students would never consider dating someone who went to the army. While there was still conscription, if you didn't chose to do alternative civil service, you were in the minority and considered suspect.

That's not true.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#199

Post by scott_s »

willholloway wrote: post #157
pauleastlund wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying, but your tone here is pretty hostile here and you don't seem to acknowledge that the point you're making is in perfect agreement with the post you're responding to. You quoted him just before he said, "[This] is, of course, nonsense."

The way Americans treat war and violence as entertainment is disturbing to him, as he has been at the other end of it. I've read an interview of a war correspondent that after witnessing war can no longer enjoy war entertainment, as it is disgusting to him. I think hostility towards an attitude that takes inflicting death lightly, for entertainment is justified.

Understood. But that is actually scrrr's point. But scrrr was making it in a way that explains why people who have not experienced war and violence use it as entertainment.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#200

Post by the-dude »

saiya-jin wrote: post #150
honzzz wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminded me of the article "The Jihad Cult: Why Young Germans Are Answering Call to Holy War" [1] - after reading it, I got the impression that at least some young men became jihadists because they are basically narcissistic losers whose attempts to be cool via normal and non-destructive means (like becaming famous rapper or kickboxer) failed so they convinced themselves that joining ISIS is the cool thing - the…

I predict this might give me a lot of hate, but these people coming back is the worst possible outcome for (not only german) society. I don't believe for a second that at least most of them are not properly unbalanced (or worse) and will do no good to society for rest of their lives. I cannot imagine myself doing something like that, and I was no angel when teen. You can see in all media how war looks like there, so…

I think it is not fair to claim these young men want war. I think they want to fight for their cause.

Also, it is the United States which created a power-vacuum in the region. Why they did this is still a mystery to me.

I demonstrated in Amsterdam against the invasion of Iraq at the time as it was already clear at the time it was a racket.

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