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Why Young Men Go to War

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Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#131

Post by pluma »

lukifer wrote: post #57
AYBABTME wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it callous? Why get in the army in the first place, if not to do the work of the army? I'd be hypocritical to join the army with the desire to then avoid operations. I can understand that people be against war. I don't like violence. I don't encourage violence and certainly do not enjoy wars. But wars exist and as a citizen, you can decide to wish that war magically weren't a thing, or do something about their…

As Sun Tzu said, the greatest warrior is the one who need never fight. While this can be interpreted as a pacifist/moral sentiment, it is really deeply practical: fighting incurs risks and resources, even if victorious. The most effective victories come from a credible deterrent which is never actually used. So I don't think your training would have been wasted by not seeing combat, any more than a policeman's weapon…

If only US policemen listened more closely to Sun Tzu.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#132

Post by pluma »

lostlogin wrote: post #105
rob_lh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be a callous viewpoint, but intent certainly matters. Just going to war to use your training is wholly callous. But take any of the recent genocides (Rwanda) or even ISIS - innocent people are unquestionably being killed. A soldier hears about this in the news, prepares every day to stop large forces like that, and instead is being asked to stand down. The media obviously plays a large role in shaping the pe…

Keep in mind that the average war kills as many civilians as it does combatants. War is not precise, despite what we are told. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

But luckily the US is changing that by re-defining who is or is not a civilian.

Last I checked the official stance was that any able-bodied adult or adolescent male in a war zone is considered an enemy combatant in official statistics.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#133

Post by pluma »

ekianjo wrote: post #27
[deleted] wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

No, nobody has to go, there's no actual need for war unless actual soldiers come marching on your homes. Which has like NEVER happened in the US (and who would dare anyway!). And it's not like US Allies are in deep danger either. Most of the current wars are of the "preventive" nonsense type.

"Sometime they'll give a war and nobody will come"

~ Carl Sandburg

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#134

Post by aswerty »

littletimmy wrote: post #88

It is frightening to see some people on this thread saying how they feel an urge to go to war because they "want to best other men" or "want to win". One way to counteract that could be actively practicing nullifying one's ego. Everyday, do one thing you really dislike, and stop doing one thing you really like and can do. People need to get over this ridiculous idea that all their desires must be sated.

It may be frightening but it is a very natural urge. Most people use sport and competition as an outlet for this. Personally I think the idea of trying to nullify our innate desires is a a lot scarier.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#135

Post by gaius »

honzzz wrote: post #96
scrrr wrote: post #87

I forgot who said it, but it went like this: "If people recognise the banality of war, there will be no more wars." Of course its not that simple, but we, I suppose especially us techie boys (us because I am one), think that an M1 Abrams tank, a F-15 airplane or a Sig Sauer rifle are, well, cool. We also think uniforms look good. And we dream of being heroes, especially when we are young. It is, of course, nonsense.…

This reminded me of the article "The Jihad Cult: Why Young Germans Are Answering Call to Holy War" [1] - after reading it, I got the impression that at least some young men became jihadists because they are basically narcissistic losers whose attempts to be cool via normal and non-destructive means (like becaming famous rapper or kickboxer) failed so they convinced themselves that joining ISIS is the cool thing - the…

Post-modern Western journalists and politicians are spectacularly ill-equipped to understand and hence deal with, people who actually believe in something, whatever that thing may be.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#136

Post by return0 »

antocv wrote: post #97
scrrr wrote: post #87

I forgot who said it, but it went like this: "If people recognise the banality of war, there will be no more wars." Of course its not that simple, but we, I suppose especially us techie boys (us because I am one), think that an M1 Abrams tank, a F-15 airplane or a Sig Sauer rifle are, well, cool. We also think uniforms look good. And we dream of being heroes, especially when we are young. It is, of course, nonsense.…

> us techie boys (us because I am one), think that an M1 Abrams tank, a F-15 airplane or a Sig Sauer rifle are, well, cool. Speak for yourself only. As a child Ive seen artillery in action, MiGs XX dropping bombs close to basement "us techies" were hiding it, those things are not fucking cool. It would be so fun one day for you to experience an F15 dropping its load on your village or an M1 Abrams tank, firing its gu…

There is a big qualitative difference between the conflicts in Europe and the wars waged by America. Wars in europe are nationalistic, vicious and leave deep scars even decades later on. It's fair to say we still haven't recovered from the scars of the 2 WWs and are still suspicious of each other. The US army is worldwide police. Their soldiers are basically heavily armed "policemen" who execute missions in exotic countries. That's why hollywood sees war as fun, technical an inhuman.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#137

Post by nothrabannosir »

pauleastlund wrote: post #98
antocv wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> us techie boys (us because I am one), think that an M1 Abrams tank, a F-15 airplane or a Sig Sauer rifle are, well, cool. Speak for yourself only. As a child Ive seen artillery in action, MiGs XX dropping bombs close to basement "us techies" were hiding it, those things are not fucking cool. It would be so fun one day for you to experience an F15 dropping its load on your village or an M1 Abrams tank, firing its gu…

I get what you're saying, but your tone here is pretty hostile here and you don't seem to acknowledge that the point you're making is in perfect agreement with the post you're responding to. You quoted him just before he said, "[This] is, of course, nonsense."

Did he edit his comment after you replied? I totally agree with what he said to GP: "don't include me in your 'we think war machines are cool.'" That's bad form in general, doubly so on this touchy subject.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#138

Post by pluma »

kristofferR wrote: post #116
blfr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rejection is not in not wanting men to go to war, or in favouring any particular social order, but in denying innate sex differences. According to Junger, these theories are strongly rooted in academia, and particularly the social sciences. “I have friends who are anthropologists and primatologists and evolutionary psychologists … [who are under] an enormous amount of pressure to generate data that shows that all…

> “I have friends who are anthropologists and primatologists and evolutionary psychologists … [who are under] an enormous amount of pressure to generate data that shows that all gender differences are cultural.” This documentary is really interesting in that regard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVaTc15plVs It's a Norwegian documentary from 2010 about "Why do girls tend to go into empathizing professions and boys i…

Human sexual dimorphism? Ridiculous. Humans aren't animals.

Funny how the far right and far left so often suffer from the same defects if you look close enough.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#139

Post by dmichulke »

honzzz wrote: post #96
scrrr wrote: post #87

I forgot who said it, but it went like this: "If people recognise the banality of war, there will be no more wars." Of course its not that simple, but we, I suppose especially us techie boys (us because I am one), think that an M1 Abrams tank, a F-15 airplane or a Sig Sauer rifle are, well, cool. We also think uniforms look good. And we dream of being heroes, especially when we are young. It is, of course, nonsense.…

This reminded me of the article "The Jihad Cult: Why Young Germans Are Answering Call to Holy War" [1] - after reading it, I got the impression that at least some young men became jihadists because they are basically narcissistic losers whose attempts to be cool via normal and non-destructive means (like becaming famous rapper or kickboxer) failed so they convinced themselves that joining ISIS is the cool thing - the…

It may also be just a piece of propaganda, especially since it's written by Spiegel.

Somehow all opponents to the pro-US mainstream opinion end up there being narcissists (IS), evil dictators (Putin, Assad) and weak governments (Iraq, Afghanistan, just recently Greece), usually ridiculing them without asking for their motives.

A few months ago Spiegel even had to defend itself openly because people cancelled their subscriptions due to what was perceived as warmongering (Kriegshetze)

My own opinion is that unless media reports positive and negative aspects from both parties (because there is never only one culprit, neither in politics nor in marriage), they cannot be taken seriously.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#140

Post by dmichulke »

DonGateley wrote: post #75

I've never needed to wonder why they go but I wonder deeply at why they charge into opposing fire.

They only do it in films - to cultivate the heroism that will eventually lead them to charge into fire in practice.

My best guess is it's an implementation of (social-)darwinist beliefs using cultural modelling (aka propaganda).

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