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Why Young Men Go to War

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Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#71

Post by kijin »

Crito wrote: post #64
kijin wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ID was nuts because it tried to present itself as a description of the past. But if you're trying to issue prescriptions for the future (i.e. what kind of world do you want to create?), there's nothing fundamentally wrong about first identifying where you want to go and then cherrypicking biological and psychological traits to manipulate in order to get there. It would be just like writing a program to get the result…

Descriptions of the past are not nuts. History, the legitimate peer-reviewed study of history , does the same. Evolutionary biology tells us much about the past, as does much of physics. None of that is problematic. ID was nuts because of their flawed methodology. > "But if you're trying to issue prescriptions for the future (i.e. what kind of world do you want to create?), there's nothing fundamentally wrong about f…

Actually, I agree with you.

What I meant is that ID used an inappropriate methodology for what it purported to do, but the same methodology might be appropriate in other contexts such as social engineering.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#72

Post by navait »

I dislike when people try to say they don't have a political agenda and are "neutral" observers. All media has a political dimension, and even if you aren't trying to beat people over the head with it, it would serve you well to acknowledge your leanings. Even Frederick Wiseman, the creator of the "Film Truth" school of documentaries happily acknowledges that he could never be unbiased.

However it seems especially absurd to say he has no political agenda in his films, and in the next breath criticize two common political narratives.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#73

Post by uxhacker »

niels_olson wrote: post #3

Having been in for 20 years now, I definitely agree with Junger, there is an innate element in young men trying to prove themselves. I think YCombinator appeals to a similar desire. I was performing an autopsy yesterday when the med student, the photographer, and the assistant started talking about guns. Their gusto was impressive. I felt no need to partake, but I think that was attributable, at least in part, to the…

Exactly. I went to a sad war to piss off my parents. One Grandfather had delivered letters. Another had been in the 10th Australian Light Horse Regiment of the Australian army and last great horse led assault of the First World War.

I could not rebel by taking drugs. Both my parents went to wars. My parents had been famous journalists. My mother had broken the the story of the Heroin problem of the Australian army. My dad broke countless stories. All wars are nasty. I went to Sarajevo in the 1990's. This was a war of the break of communism (in a way) of Yugoslavia. This was a war that was accessible from a 3 hour flight form London.

Upon arrival I phoned both of my parents courtesy of of a CNN satellite. But I was lucky. Somebody pointed a gun at the car I was driving and missed. Another day somebody pointed a gun at the tank I was hiding behind. They missed.

The weird part of this story was that I was escaping the production of a violent computer game which I was meant to be helping with in the marketing. Where I went was very scary. In the computer game you never missed. In real life you just partied.

All of this to piss my parents off. Am I mad. The weird bit, was that marijuana was cool in my parents eyes, but war was not. There was neither the understanding in why I went, or why the war had happened by anybody. I still feel cut off by this war.

I lost the war. I started to believe that there should be no distance between the developed and developing world. But in the end no matter how strange the first world was that the developing world people will still fire guns at you. Having said that. I have more true friends in the developing world than the developed.

What makes me feel sad is that us as humans are basically the same.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#74

Post by pistle »

My opinion is probably as invalid as the author's or most anyone else's... but I can't let a couple things just sit.

Just because some closely related primates display something we can interpret as war doesn't mean you can then assume there is some related, unavoidable instinct in homo sapiens. This is a poor argument that highlights the author's own bastardized interpretation of evolution. It's 2015 and those are chimps, in 2015. We are not chimps. This line of argument is very weak.

Overall, his self-consciousness is barely containable and I'm having trouble being objective based on this. It sounds like intelligent people tell him he's wrong, but he's got the facts and the platform, so he's right. He can't strongly defend his ideas. He just likes to say everyone on the right and left is crazy, absurd, and/or wrong - obviously. But there's no follow-through. He knows. He was there, and he's telling you. He's read something about chimps and has an opinion about innate differences and their implications for society. This echoes personalities I've known who self-affirm from exactly the lack of external affirmation they seek. He seeks to define the boundaries of the discussion to suit his conclusion, then accuses others of not being able to have an honest discussion if they wouldn't agree to it since they argue that it is no space for an insightful discussion. Catch-a 22.

Why is there no mention of the incentives for the 14%+ of women in the US military? That's a big enough number to do a study to see how many of them are trying to find "manhood" and compare it to the boys.

They should have a question in the discharge process: "Did you find manhood during your service?"

As an aside, I'd be interested to see an Ask HN: "How many people have you killed on the field of battle?"

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#76

Post by BuckRogers »

AYBABTME wrote: post #49
yequalsx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second paragraph seems callous to me. Going to war for the sake of not wasting one's hard training, so to speak, is not moral. At least as I look at it. War is horrible and should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes it is justifiable and necessary. War should be a last resort. I wish society had alternate means of accomplishing your first paragraph without resort to the second.

Why is it callous? Why get in the army in the first place, if not to do the work of the army? I'd be hypocritical to join the army with the desire to then avoid operations. I can understand that people be against war. I don't like violence. I don't encourage violence and certainly do not enjoy wars. But wars exist and as a citizen, you can decide to wish that war magically weren't a thing, or do something about their…

You sound like a good person to me, but I do think you're wrong. It would be very hard for you to not see things the way you've described them, without going crazy at least.

It may be best to reject others' opinions, considering what you've done. Just to maintain that sanity. We all lie to ourselves for many things in our lives to maintain sanity. I'm not saying this in any way to be a slight towards you.

I personally think the current wars are actually abusive to those who join. Just because someone signs up to -defend- the nation, doesn't mean the political elite has a right to abuse those people. Since I think the wars are unjust, illegal and doing more harm overall than good. I'd never participate and would never encourage anyone I know to do so either. The best way to end war, which is never the 'right thing' in my mind to refuse to participate. There are -always- alternatives even if the argument coming from the profiting parties don't frame it in such a way that this is clear. Short of having foreign troops as we have them overseas, in your hometown. Then there likely are few alternatives.

Someday, and I think that day is approaching or we wouldn't be automating war, we'll see everyone as the same as us. I'd grab a gun and defend my home in Afghanistan too. I don't blame those people. Just as I'd be a 'terrorist' if the Chinese were in the US today to liberate us. I don't believe in gods or the tooth fairy- but I'd be happy to ally myself with Christian Fundamentalists if it meant preventing some jackass Chinese soldier from blowing up my grandmother's house, raping my wife, or just for simply marching around my hometown like they own the place. Which all of these things happen when you give someone a gun and license to kill.

The whole get-the-bad-guy argument has been proven wrong so many times. Looking at the situation today, Saddam was a great guy who we wish we could put back into place. Now there's ISIS, it's all a huge joke on us.

I don't honestly believe it's about any noble goals though. It's about perpetual war, using any argument at any cost to keep it going. This is the Vietnam they failed to turn into a perpetual goldmine for those who finance it and build the bombs. If you get my overall point here, you'll see I actually Support the Troops better than those who have the stupid bumper stickers or tell you "thank you for your service". The best way to support them is to bring them home where they belong, defending the nation from attack. I can't thank anyone for their service since I don't support the mission, but I also can't bear the thought we as citizens have somehow allowed this to go on for so long.

If political influence wasn't strictly measured by our bank accounts in our society, you'd never had a war to fight.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#79

Post by higherpurpose »

AYBABTME wrote: post #49
yequalsx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second paragraph seems callous to me. Going to war for the sake of not wasting one's hard training, so to speak, is not moral. At least as I look at it. War is horrible and should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes it is justifiable and necessary. War should be a last resort. I wish society had alternate means of accomplishing your first paragraph without resort to the second.

Why is it callous? Why get in the army in the first place, if not to do the work of the army? I'd be hypocritical to join the army with the desire to then avoid operations. I can understand that people be against war. I don't like violence. I don't encourage violence and certainly do not enjoy wars. But wars exist and as a citizen, you can decide to wish that war magically weren't a thing, or do something about their…

Yet you're happy with going into the Iraq war because you were bored and wanted to do something "positive" with your life? You have no regrets about going into an immoral war that should never have happened?

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#80

Post by didibus »

niels_olson wrote: post #3

Having been in for 20 years now, I definitely agree with Junger, there is an innate element in young men trying to prove themselves. I think YCombinator appeals to a similar desire. I was performing an autopsy yesterday when the med student, the photographer, and the assistant started talking about guns. Their gusto was impressive. I felt no need to partake, but I think that was attributable, at least in part, to the…

Interestingly enough, crime is perpetrated mostly by young men also.
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