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Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#81

Post by bytecycle »

keyanp wrote: post #27

This article is mostly nonsense. The way I look at it, mandatory helmet laws are protecting not only cyclists but also drivers by reducing the likelihood of a serious injury resulting from an accident. In regards to improving bike-ability, adding more bike lanes is certainly the best way forward. Meanwhile we can encourage responsible bike use for those who share the roadways with motor vehicles. I'm frankly appalled…

To justify the cost of these additional bike lanes and infrastructure you'll first need people actually riding their bikes. A change of mentality is required here. As a cyclist you shouldn't feel so unsafe that you have to put on a helmet and war paint. The money spent on ridiculous bike laws and expensive special infrastructure should first be allocated to educating all drivers. There needs to be a shift in attitude towards cyclists so they can feel safe again. All these passive-aggressive comments against cyclist are very sad to read. I guess you have to be a little insane and have a certain negligence about rules to comfortably ride your bike and be able to ignore all the maniacs behind the wheel.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#82

Post by hueving »

pascalo wrote: post #55
vacri wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does something have to be fatal before it's worth doing something about? Serious injury doesn't count?

In the overall road toll, hardly any fatalities are caused by cyclists. In fact, most accidents involving cyclist are caused by drivers.[1] Don't get me wrong, all of it counts and is sad and regrettable. I do however think there is an anti-cyclist bias ingrained in the perception and reporting of it's dangers, that's out of whack with the real numbers on accidents. [1] http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafet…

What are you going on about? The person was complaining about bicycles on the sidewalk where it is illegal for them to be. Who cares if they don't kill people that often? It's not the point!

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#83

Post by stephendedalus »

baddox wrote: post #77
stephendedalus wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is he implying that some significant portion of alleged car-on-bike accidents are actually purposeful assault from the automobile driver? I find that very difficult to believe. No, he's not. He's implying that instead of motorists being charged with reckless driving or other similar charges, they're most often not even charged. I once had a car make a left turn across 4 lanes of traffic and a turn lane and t-bone m…

I have no complaints about the claim that drivers should more often be charged with reckless driving, but that's very different than suggesting that a significant portion of these incidents are purposeful collisions initiated by the automobile driver.

> I have no complaints about the claim that drivers should more often be charged with reckless driving, but that's very different than suggesting that a significant portion of these incidents are purposeful collisions initiated by the automobile driver.

I don't believe the author was saying that. He said...

> We’re already at the point where every car-on-bike “accident” (police always assume it’s an accident; drivers are allowed unlimited “oopsies”)

I believe what the author meant is that there's an accident and then there's something far less than accident that's more the result of reckless driving, poor driving or aggressive driving. And yet the law always errs on the side of it being an unavoidable accident.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#84

Post by pandaman »

birken wrote: post #63
jinushaun wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a cyclist in the U.S., but have no problem admitting that probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault. I've ridden bikes in Europe with real bike lanes—U.S. urban cycling culture is not Dutch cycling culture. There is not a culture of responsible cycling. We don't have real bike lanes. We don't stop for red lights. We don't stop for pedestrians. As a result, the U.S. also does not have many drivers or pedes…

I'm a cyclist and I completely disagree with this. I've biked thousands and thousands of miles in SF, and I think probably 80 or 90% of cyclists are responsible and law abiding. There are maybe 10 or 20 percent who are bad, run red lights and do other crazy shit. They are not the majority. And if you want further proof, just read the list of bicycle fatalities in SF [1] and see who is at fault. Most of the time it is…

Maybe cyclists in SF are so special, but in LA I have yet to see a cyclist stopping at a stop sign. I walk to/from work about 2 miles each way and see about a dozen cyclists every day. Sure, cars some times do not stop at the sign either but I don't see this happening nearly as often as I see cyclists just happily cycling through stop without even an attempt to slow down. And I see much more cars than bikes.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#85

Post by baddox »

stephendedalus wrote: post #83
baddox wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no complaints about the claim that drivers should more often be charged with reckless driving, but that's very different than suggesting that a significant portion of these incidents are purposeful collisions initiated by the automobile driver.

> I have no complaints about the claim that drivers should more often be charged with reckless driving, but that's very different than suggesting that a significant portion of these incidents are purposeful collisions initiated by the automobile driver. I don't believe the author was saying that. He said... > We’re already at the point where every car-on-bike “accident” (police always assume it’s an accident; drivers…

Perhaps we are quibbling over the definition of "accident." I would consider an unintentional collision to be an accident even if one person was driving recklessly. As far as I can tell, that is standard usage of the word, especially in the context of vehicle collisions.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#86

Post by serge2k »

rtpg wrote: post #31
oldmanjay wrote: post #4

Also kids shouldn't have to look before crossing the street. Just make drivers not hit kids. Any other position is victim-blaming.

Pretty sure the burden is on the car to ensure safety, since they are the one operating heavy machinery in public, instead of just walking. It actually does make sense to blame the driver for their behavior.

If you step out into high speed traffic without warning you should be held 100% responsible for what happens.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#87

Post by oska »

angersock wrote: post #78
jinushaun wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a cyclist in the U.S., but have no problem admitting that probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault. I've ridden bikes in Europe with real bike lanes—U.S. urban cycling culture is not Dutch cycling culture. There is not a culture of responsible cycling. We don't have real bike lanes. We don't stop for red lights. We don't stop for pedestrians. As a result, the U.S. also does not have many drivers or pedes…

I commute to work every day on my bike, and I live in Houston, which is probably about as car-friendly a city as you can get. Most of the cyclists I see are pretty well-behaved, stopping at lights and behaving nicely. The drivers, though, have no idea what to do with this strange two-wheeled human-vehicle centaurish thing which randomly appears on the road with them. They'll swerve out into oncoming lanes of traffic…

> And then there are the pedestrians! If drivers are clueless, people that are ambling around or jogging are malevolently stupid. Call out your passing side ahead of time, and they stop and crane their head around trying to see if God himself was talking to them--instead of, you know, moving out of the way in the indicated direction. Then there are the uppity joggers who will get in your face for sharing a dirt path ~4m wide.

You completely lost me with this paragraph as your attitude to pedestrians is almost an exact reflection of the problematic one that many drivers have to cyclists.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#88

Post by claudius »

yitchelle wrote: post #7
rkischuk wrote: post #3

Almost every time I encounter cyclists in traffic, they context switch between vehicle and pedestrian at their convenience. If you want to be treated as a vehicle, be a vehicle. Don't block a lane between intersections and then ride the divider lines to advance ahead of cars at every intersection so they can wait and merge around you once the light turns. As a former bike commuter, I really don't understand why bikes…

> They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians. Pedestrians and bike riders are not compatible either. I am a bike commuter as well. I live in West Germany at the moment, but I have also bike commuted to work in Australia. In general, commuting in Germany is a much safer proposition than in Australia. The German drivers seem to be more aware and tolerance to the bike commuters. The b…

I’m cycling to work in Munich at the moment. There’s a little piece (~800m) of one-way street with traffic lights at both ends. Due to the layout of the initial traffic lights, cyclists usually enter that street before traffic, as they have to obey their special bike-traffic-light.

On that street, cars attempt and do pass by me every day, despite there definitely not being enough room for a bike and a car to move next to each other – resulting in them passing by at distances of as little as 1m! Did I mention the speed limit of 30 km/h there and that I’m usually doing exactly that?

There’s also at least once a day some idiot who thinks he can turn right over the bike lane without checking for actual bikes on that lane and another idiot who considers the bike lane a very convenient parking spot. There are also usually two to three cases where a driver attempting to turn into the main street from the right (without right of way) stops on the bike lane and then gets upset if one attempts to drive around them.

The idea that German drivers are aware or tolerant of bikes is absolutely ridiculous – though of course they may be more aware and tolerant than Australian bikers, but I don’t know that (:

Unfortunately, policing these traffic violations seems to be perfectly uncommon here.

Of course, most of these wouldn’t be issues if we treated bikes like cars with the exact same rights and obligations as cars.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#89

Post by Digit-Al »

cperciva wrote: post #26

At first I thought this was going to be a parody of "anti-rape-culture" campaigns (e.g., "teaching women to defend themselves from rapists is wrong, because we should be teaching men to not rape women"), but much to my surprise it seems that the author is serious. And so I really have to wonder about his grip on logic: The whole purpose of making cyclists more visible is to prevent drivers from hitting them! Driving…

As both a cyclist and a driver, I agree with you to a point. However, the wife of an ex-colleague of mine cycles to work every day. She was knocked off her bike by a car one dark morning (luckily not hurt, just a bit shaken up). She had lights front and back on the bike, was wearing a high visibility jacket, had a head mounted light, and little lights on her body. Basically, she was lit up like a Christmas tree. The drivers response after hitting her - "sorry, I didn't see you".

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#90

Post by Kliment »

aidenn0 wrote: post #60
jasonkester wrote: post #40

This is one of the nice things about moving to France. You can ride your bike on a narrow road without a shoulder where cars routinely pass you going 70mph, and never really worry about being taken out. Bikes are things that are found on roads here, so cars just go around them. Usually all the way over in the far lane. I've never had a car come closer than 2m when passing me on the road. No surprise, since they have…

Wow, 2m? We just got a law passed here to make it 90cm (there was no specified distance before).

It's 150cm in Germany but enforcement and compliance varies a lot by region.
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