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Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

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Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, they are neither, really. Bicycles are not comparable to motor vehicles, as they are much slower (50 km/h vs ~15-20 km/h). Bicycles are also not comparable to pedestrians, as they are much faster (5 km/h vs ~15-20 km/h). I think it's a mistake to mix traffic that differs in speed by a factor of 3. As someone who moved from the Netherlands to London, it has taken me years to adjust to absence of real bic…

I agree with you in principle but let me make a cheeky comment: Average speed of a motor vehicle in London is 8.98 mph ( http://www.itv.com/news/london/update/2012-11-19/tfl-average... ) so way lower than average bike commuter speed (~12-15mph)

Haha, I'm sure that's true (in fact, it's one of the reasons many prefer cycling), but I'd argue that the average speed matters a lot less than the top speed. Stop and go traffic, where one minute cycles whizz past cars and the next it's the other way around, is probably the worst of both worlds.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#42
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians. I live in Tempe, AZ near ASU - one of the "most bike friendly" cities in the US, and I can't tell you how many times I've been nearly killed by a bike at full speed weaving in and out of pedestrian traffic on the sidewalk - where it's actually illegal for them to ride. Bikes do not belong on the sidewalk unless they're moving as slow as…

While I totally understand that it must've felt menacing to nearly have been hit by a bicycle, do you _really_ think it would've killed you? I also think that cyclists shouldn't ride at speed on the sidewalk, but even if, cyclists causing pedestrian fatalities is extremely rare. It has happened, but it's statistically insignificant when compared to cars killing pedestrians. There is a big difference between getting h…

Does something have to be fatal before it's worth doing something about? Serious injury doesn't count?

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#43
I cycle to work nearly everyday in the UK. Locally we have crazy cycle lanes that at junction take you off the road and then have to yield to crossing traffic at junctions whereas if I stayed on the road I have right of way.

I always stop at red lights. I ride the road so follow the rules of the road.

However as a cyclist I also have to take command of a lane to prevent vehicles trying to squeeze by between a central reservation. Only for me to catch them up and overtake then at the next set of lights.

Urban speed limit is 30mph and usually less when traffic is heavy. I can cycle to and from work faster than I can drive. So I get annoyed when I see the same car make a bad overtake 3 times while I am riding. If they travelled with me they would arrive no later.

I stick my arm out to turn right (we drive in the left) and vehicles will continue to overtake me even as I pull out to the centre of the road.

I wear a helmet and a hi-vis jacket. I also have insurance. Even so I have around 2 near misses a week and so far this year been clipped twice from behind.

On the flip side I see stupid cyclists darting across lights, bunny hoping on and off pavements and weaving in lanes. So I can see why motorists get angry when sat in there cars. I have also had a couple of disagreements with other cyclists who are setting a bad example. They generally have a "give a shit" response.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#44
post #21

As a cyclist, I am more than happy to see tech that makes me more visible! Why are people up in arms!!? So stupid.

He's not in arms against the tech, but rather against the laws that make them mandatory. Because it encourages motor vehicle drivers even more to not properly pay attention because they're not the ones at fault when hitting a cyclist.

Helmet laws may be dumb, but visibility laws could actually make cycling much safer!

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#45

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

I agree 100%, and it's the reason I love, love, love the intersection at 10th and Pike in Seattle (which is arguably a "shit show" for all the odd things that happen there) because it's people first; people can just start walking out into traffic and traffic stops for people. It's a very interesting demonstration.

Edit: s/waking/walking/

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do cyclists in Netherlands skip traffic lights and act like they have a chip on their shoulder? Well American ones do. If cyclists are going to share the road, they would see fit have their bicycles registered, pay yearly fees and purchase insurance - both for themselves and the ones they cause harm to [1] - just like motorists do. Anything else is just favoritism. Won't stand in a court of law, here. The next time a…

Registration and Insurance isn't a bad idea actually...

It's actually a horrible idea, and is generally a money loser in terms of licensing and enforcement as well:

http://chi.streetsblog.org/2013/10/24/no-a-bike-license-fee-...

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#47
"It’s just that cars are like white people and Wall Street — they don’t need any more defending from anybody."

This kind of lame trolling really should stay on blogs and off of national newspapers.

"it won’t be long before you need a license and registration to operate a bicycle, and you’ll be wearing a giant Dayglo bodysuit with illumination circuitry, one of those Australian “smart hats,” and a GPS beacon up your posterior so you don’t get hit by an Apple iCar."

The people who oppose bicycle lanes [or even bicycles in general] won't even get pissed off by this stupendously unlikely suggestion. It's only designed to get angry bicyclists to vehemently agree with the general position based on emotional resonance and not any sort of logic. It's fodder for more angry bike people to read his bike blog.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#48
post #36
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I totally understand that it must've felt menacing to nearly have been hit by a bicycle, do you _really_ think it would've killed you? I also think that cyclists shouldn't ride at speed on the sidewalk, but even if, cyclists causing pedestrian fatalities is extremely rare. It has happened, but it's statistically insignificant when compared to cars killing pedestrians. There is a big difference between getting h…

I think it could indeed kill you. It's rare, but certainly can happen: """ From 1996 to 2005, 11 pedestrians across New York City died after being struck by bicyclists.... 2006 to 2013, there were just four pedestrian deaths, according to the city’s Department of Transportation. """ [0] 0: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-23/pedestrian...

Very sad. However, you kind of made my point. That amounts to 0.8 pedestrian fatalities a year caused by cyclists, with a population of 8.4 million people.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#49
I almost completely agree with the author's policy recommendations and criticisms of US car culture, but I find many of his arguments and implications to be fairly troubling.

> We’re already at the point where every car-on-bike “accident” (police always assume it’s an accident; drivers are allowed unlimited “oopsies”)

Is he implying that some significant portion of alleged car-on-bike accidents are actually purposeful assault from the automobile driver? I find that very difficult to believe.

> That’s why whenever you read about a cyclist who’s been injured or killed, the article mentions helmets, regardless of whether this detail in any way relevant. (“The cyclist’s legs were flattened by the runaway steamroller. No criminality suspected. The victim was not wearing a helmet.”)

I question whether media reports of a victim not wearing a helmet when a helmet clearly would not have helped are actually that common, or if this is just the author's bias (i.e. he notices and remembers these reports more than others).

> Here’s why the auto industry, the insurance industry and the officials they lobby want helmet laws. First, forcing people to wear helmets shifts responsibilities onto cyclists and absolves governments from having to build better cycling infrastructure and drivers from having to obey traffic laws.

I have little doubt that the auto industry wants helmet laws, but I highly doubt that shifting responsibilities onto the cyclist has anything to do with it. The second reason the author provides ("helmet laws discourage people from using bicycles for everyday transportation by making it inconvenient") feels like a sufficient reason to me.

> Meanwhile, in countries like the Netherlands and Denmark, where lots and lots of people ride bikes, a helmeted bicyclist is about as rare as a helmeted driver here in America. And yet they seem to be managing pretty well — maybe because they’ve got bike infrastructure, and because they still subscribe to the notion that the person operating the giant machine on public roads needs to be responsible for not killing people with it.

As I mentioned in another comment, all these phenomena might be caused by the fact that the Netherlands simply has (and has had for some time) a higher ratio of bicycles to automobiles than the United States. Of course, this ratio is likely affected by the US auto industry, as well as other things like income and population density.

> What? How oblivious are you? Nobody should have to “scream out” to you to get your attention while you’re driving a car. You should already be giving it, and undividedly so.

By that same logic, we shouldn't have horns, brake lights, reflective lines and road markers, or anything else that might help focus a driver's attention and thus increase the odds that the driver behaves in the manner he or she already should already behave.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#50

At first I thought this was going to be a parody of "anti-rape-culture" campaigns (e.g., "teaching women to defend themselves from rapists is wrong, because we should be teaching men to not rape women"), but much to my surprise it seems that the author is serious. And so I really have to wonder about his grip on logic: The whole purpose of making cyclists more visible is to prevent drivers from hitting them! Driving…

Far from being a parody, it seems to employ the same arguments as the worst of those campaigns, namely, that any advocacy of prudent behavior is tantamount to blaming the victim or removing blame from the antagonist. Of course, in reality, you can have both without any contradictions. It is possible and reasonable to recommend that people avoid scenarios where there is a high risk of being victimized, while at the same time placing full legal (I'll leave moral up to other people) responsibility on the antagonist.
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