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Fatal silence: Why do so many fortysomething men kill themselves?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Fatal silence: Why do so many fortysomething men kill themselves?

#61

Post by RobertoG »

netcan wrote: post #58

As a young man (maybe it's similar for women, but I suspect there is are some differences here) thinking about your life and its possibilities is usually about the environment. I thought of my own "hard abilities" like talent in math or sports as a fixed thing or more precisely a sort of talent effort equation. I though of the environment (if I get this opportunity) as the determining wildcard. I thought of my own co…

Not that I disagree with what you say but I wanted to bring attention to other thing. We are really bad at telling what the reasons of our feeling are. For instance, you could feel bad; believe that is due to your “failings” or your life. Then, you take a weekend in the woods and you feel that nothing is wrong.

My point is that many times we are not aware what is it that makes us feel bad and we just build a narrative that could or couldn’t have anything to do with our feelings. A good advice is, I think, when feeling bad; try to change how you spend your time and you can be surprised. Don’t trust too much in introspection.

Re: Fatal silence: Why do so many fortysomething men kill themselves?

#62

Post by hising »

unstabilo wrote: post #51
hising wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Could be, I don't know the numbers, what about alcohol as self harm/medication? 2. Could be, I don't know the numbers but it sounds reasonable 3. Could be, then we should see that the numbers of suicidal attempts were as high for women in the same age. 4. Should be the same for women and men right?

3. The number of reported suicidal attempts are actually higher for women.

Where did you find that information?

Re: Fatal silence: Why do so many fortysomething men kill themselves?

#63

Post by pervycreeper »

brc wrote: post #37
hising wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do you explain the difference between male and female? Women has lower expectations of life or they hit their expectations better than men in general?

I think they hit their expectations more often. Lots of women develop goals of having a family, a decent husband and stability in their life. Not all, obviously, but it is a common enough set of goals. Lots of women achieve these goals and gain a state of relative happiness. Lots of men develop goals of things like sporting prowess, business success and material wealth. These things are much less common to achieve th…

>men are also generally more capable of violent acts

Do you have a citation for that claim?

Also, what distinguishes a "violent" method of killing oneself from a "nonviolent" one?

Re: Fatal silence: Why do so many fortysomething men kill themselves?

#64

Post by hising »

lmm wrote: post #50
hising wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Could be, I don't know the numbers, what about alcohol as self harm/medication? 2. Could be, I don't know the numbers but it sounds reasonable 3. Could be, then we should see that the numbers of suicidal attempts were as high for women in the same age. 4. Should be the same for women and men right?

> 4. Should be the same for women and men right? I don't think it is. Culturally a man who's going for therapy is much more stigmatized than a woman doing so.

So the next question is, if this is true, why is that? Seems strange.

Re: Fatal silence: Why do so many fortysomething men kill themselves?

#65

Post by father_of_two »

Not being an expert on the subject, I think the trend is to have a progressive increase rate in suicides along the age. I don't know where this 40s figure comes from.

http://goo.gl/j7pOgc -- this is a study about suicide in Portugal and Spain. If you look at "Figura 13" (suicide by age on men) and "Figura 14" (suicide by age for women), that pattern is clear (they even explicitly mention it on the text as a classical pattern).

Eurostats data ( http://goo.gl/UyTqtE ) features a similar pattern, although it seems they lack a few age groups!

Re: Fatal silence: Why do so many fortysomething men kill themselves?

#67

Post by netcan »

RobertoG wrote: post #61
netcan wrote: post #58

As a young man (maybe it's similar for women, but I suspect there is are some differences here) thinking about your life and its possibilities is usually about the environment. I thought of my own "hard abilities" like talent in math or sports as a fixed thing or more precisely a sort of talent effort equation. I though of the environment (if I get this opportunity) as the determining wildcard. I thought of my own co…

Not that I disagree with what you say but I wanted to bring attention to other thing. We are really bad at telling what the reasons of our feeling are. For instance, you could feel bad; believe that is due to your “failings” or your life. Then, you take a weekend in the woods and you feel that nothing is wrong. My point is that many times we are not aware what is it that makes us feel bad and we just build a narrativ…

A absolutely agree and that is an important point.

There's some interesting discussion going on about antidepressants, which is somewhat similar to discussions about add medication for kids. 2 points: (1) Psychiatric diagnosis is often like the BMI, true at a population level but not necessarily true at a personal level. (2) Pathological is relative to the environment to need to live in. If school requires an 8 year old to pay attention in a class with forty 8 year olds for seven hours a day, inability to do so is often the trigger for medication.

With depression, I think it's uncontroversial the environments can play a large role. If the first course of treatment was living better, and medicinal treatment was layered on top of that as needed we would have better results with fewer side effects. OTOH, there are limits to what a doctor can do.

My earlier comment is more about 'why 40 year old men' not 'why depression.' The latter is almost certainly the more important and actionable question though.

Re: Fatal silence: Why do so many fortysomething men kill themselves?

#68

Post by cpursley »

yason wrote: post #33

Maybe it's because by the age of forty you've probably run out of the steam that comes free, mostly from the external expectations of what you should do. It's easy to finish school, go study something, then get a job, get a better job, start a family, have kids and pay for the bills because you don't really have to think much about what do you want from your life. Where did you come from? Why are you here? What are y…

I know this does not apply to all situations, but if your circumstances allow (and spouse is on board) - delay having children until you have these answers. Or at least understand that you don't have all the answers (and may never) early as possible. That way it does not sneak up on you. Think stoically about the future and be mindful of the present.

Re: Fatal silence: Why do so many fortysomething men kill themselves?

#69

Post by RobertoG »

netcan wrote: post #67
RobertoG wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I disagree with what you say but I wanted to bring attention to other thing. We are really bad at telling what the reasons of our feeling are. For instance, you could feel bad; believe that is due to your “failings” or your life. Then, you take a weekend in the woods and you feel that nothing is wrong. My point is that many times we are not aware what is it that makes us feel bad and we just build a narrativ…

A absolutely agree and that is an important point. There's some interesting discussion going on about antidepressants, which is somewhat similar to discussions about add medication for kids. 2 points: (1) Psychiatric diagnosis is often like the BMI, true at a population level but not necessarily true at a personal level. (2) Pathological is relative to the environment to need to live in. If school requires an 8 year…

Just wanted to point that, maybe, the source of the problems are commonalities to the “40 years old lifestyle” instead of more philosophic reasons. If we mistrust introspection then investigating that could pay well.

Re: Fatal silence: Why do so many fortysomething men kill themselves?

#70

Post by brc »

pervycreeper wrote: post #63
brc wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they hit their expectations more often. Lots of women develop goals of having a family, a decent husband and stability in their life. Not all, obviously, but it is a common enough set of goals. Lots of women achieve these goals and gain a state of relative happiness. Lots of men develop goals of things like sporting prowess, business success and material wealth. These things are much less common to achieve th…

>men are also generally more capable of violent acts Do you have a citation for that claim? Also, what distinguishes a "violent" method of killing oneself from a "nonviolent" one?

Seriously? How about every war ever started since the beginning of history? Is that enough citation?

A violent method of killing is shooting, hanging, etc. A non violent one is sleeping pills or gassing.

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