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The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

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Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#51

Post by rewqfdsa »

prostoalex wrote: post #50
rewqfdsa wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of anything special about this instant, but look at prevailing conditions: the employment-to-population rate has plummeted in recent years [1]. The number of zero-margin-product people on disability has skyrocketed [2]. Income inequality has increased markedly [3]. Yet our GDP has increased tremendously during that time [4]. We just don't need as many person-hours as we used to need. The trend is only g…

Your [1] begins in 2005. Expand that to maximum range, and it will turn out that we're at about average. I think one of the expected outcomes of ACA was that people who could afford to retire, but were too constrained to buy their own health insurance, would leave the workforce.

The previous period with a comparable employment-population ratio was before women entered the workforce in large numbers.

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#52

Post by nostrademons »

jes wrote: post #42
pjmorris wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that work, not people, is what is worthy of honor and respect?

I'm saying that productive work is one way in which people can become more worthy of honor and respect. For example, let's say you have two individuals. One gets married, fathers some children, and then decides that rather than supporting his family, he's going to sit around and play video games while his wife works 24x7 to try to take care of the family. Another man, in the same circumstances, gets a job, works hard…

Not the OP, but yes, I see it differently. IMHO, it's none of my business. The division of chores between the man and his wife is between the man and his wife.

The reason is because of a quirk of psychology. What you're describing is basically shaming people: making them feel like they are unworthy because of what they do or do not choose to do. And that's a logical response to trying to influence behavior. Except it doesn't work. When you, me, society in general makes people feel like they're unworthy of honor and respect because of what they do, they end up confirming those expectations of unworthiness in what they do, they don't end up adjusting what they do to escape your judgments.

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#53

Post by siscia »

nightski wrote: post #40
winter_blue wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Enact a 20-hour work week "Enact" implies the government restricting everyone to working 20 hours per week. That's a violation of our freedom to work as many hours as we want. I do support you in that all of people shouldn't have to work in order to meet the basic needs of life today (food, housing, and connectivity). Agricultural and industrial efficiency and automization has advanced to a point where we can provi…

I just can't get behind basic income. It makes sense from a very self-motivated individual's point of view (which many/most on HN are) but if you look at the majority of the country in my opinion most people are not driven this way. I really feel like we would end up with a country where the majority just live on basic income and do nothing. At least now they must contribute to society on a basic level to earn an inc…

This is something I cannot figure out, people do not get bored after a while of doing nothing ?

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#54

Post by raincom »

nightski wrote: post #40
winter_blue wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Enact a 20-hour work week "Enact" implies the government restricting everyone to working 20 hours per week. That's a violation of our freedom to work as many hours as we want. I do support you in that all of people shouldn't have to work in order to meet the basic needs of life today (food, housing, and connectivity). Agricultural and industrial efficiency and automization has advanced to a point where we can provi…

I just can't get behind basic income. It makes sense from a very self-motivated individual's point of view (which many/most on HN are) but if you look at the majority of the country in my opinion most people are not driven this way. I really feel like we would end up with a country where the majority just live on basic income and do nothing. At least now they must contribute to society on a basic level to earn an inc…

> I really feel like we would end up with a country where the majority just live on basic income and do nothing.

The people who end up on "basic income" would do something they like to do; but that something is nothing of value to the economic elite of the world. In that sense, they do "nothing".

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#55

Post by prostoalex »

winter_blue wrote: post #17
rewqfdsa wrote: post #3

Enact a 20-hour work week. Our machines are powerful enough now that we should be able to devote our lives to human dignity, not work. Technology will only turn our world into a Dickensian hellhole if we let it.

> Enact a 20-hour work week "Enact" implies the government restricting everyone to working 20 hours per week. That's a violation of our freedom to work as many hours as we want. I do support you in that all of people shouldn't have to work in order to meet the basic needs of life today (food, housing, and connectivity). Agricultural and industrial efficiency and automization has advanced to a point where we can provi…

I haven't seen a model of basic income where math makes sense.

If the government has a significant source of non-income revenue (Alaska), the payouts seem to be too trivial ($1,884 annually at yesteryear oil prices). Nice, but not a deal breaker.

US on the federal level is so dependent on income tax revenue, that you have to tax income to distribute that income.

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#56

Post by tbrownaw »

raincom wrote: post #54
nightski wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just can't get behind basic income. It makes sense from a very self-motivated individual's point of view (which many/most on HN are) but if you look at the majority of the country in my opinion most people are not driven this way. I really feel like we would end up with a country where the majority just live on basic income and do nothing. At least now they must contribute to society on a basic level to earn an inc…

> I really feel like we would end up with a country where the majority just live on basic income and do nothing. The people who end up on "basic income" would do something they like to do; but that something is nothing of value to the economic elite of the world. In that sense, they do "nothing".

but that something is nothing of value to the economic elite of the world

It has absolutely nothing to do with any "elite". It has to do with being economically visible.

If the government pays 300M citizens each $25k annually, that's $7.5T that has to come from somewhere.

If you play videogames all day, or turn your back yard into a decorative garden, or anything else you don't get paid for, then you are not contributing to that $7.5T.

Which can kinda be a problem if too many people do that and there's nowhere for it to come from.

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#57

Post by nightski »

siscia wrote: post #53
nightski wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just can't get behind basic income. It makes sense from a very self-motivated individual's point of view (which many/most on HN are) but if you look at the majority of the country in my opinion most people are not driven this way. I really feel like we would end up with a country where the majority just live on basic income and do nothing. At least now they must contribute to society on a basic level to earn an inc…

This is something I cannot figure out, people do not get bored after a while of doing nothing ?

There is a large difference between doing nothing, and doing nothing of value to society.

For example, I love to learn. I could spend ages reading books and learning as much as possible for my meager brain to understand about physics and it would be very fulfilling.

But unless I apply that knowledge, it really wasn't of much value to anyone (even myself, depending on how you look at it).

So why do I deserve to take advantage of all society would provide with basic income (food, shelter, safety, etc..) if I provided nothing in return?

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#58

Post by siscia »

nightski wrote: post #57
siscia wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something I cannot figure out, people do not get bored after a while of doing nothing ?

There is a large difference between doing nothing, and doing nothing of value to society. For example, I love to learn. I could spend ages reading books and learning as much as possible for my meager brain to understand about physics and it would be very fulfilling. But unless I apply that knowledge, it really wasn't of much value to anyone (even myself, depending on how you look at it). So why do I deserve to take a…

Ok, I see, but after you spend 5 years of your life learning you will be able to do a lot of thing.

Now, why should you start doing something different from learning ?

Maybe because if you do something productive you will product value that will let you to live in a better house, or to learn more...

The point is not to let everybody doing nothing of productive, the point is to give to everybody the choice, between doing nothing of productive now vs. bringing values to the society...

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#59

Post by jes »

nostrademons wrote: post #52
jes wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that productive work is one way in which people can become more worthy of honor and respect. For example, let's say you have two individuals. One gets married, fathers some children, and then decides that rather than supporting his family, he's going to sit around and play video games while his wife works 24x7 to try to take care of the family. Another man, in the same circumstances, gets a job, works hard…

Not the OP, but yes, I see it differently. IMHO, it's none of my business. The division of chores between the man and his wife is between the man and his wife. The reason is because of a quirk of psychology. What you're describing is basically shaming people: making them feel like they are unworthy because of what they do or do not choose to do. And that's a logical response to trying to influence behavior. Except it…

Your reply is helpful to me, to clarify my own thinking. Thank you.

Let's continue with the hypothetical that I presented.

We have a man who is shirking his responsibility to his wife and to his children. Presumably, his wife did not sign up for the deal she now has when she married him (and if she did, it's on her, then, but I'm assuming she did not) and the children, of course, had no role in the decision making.

Does the man who ignores the responsibilities he freely chose develop or improve his sense of self-esteem, by sitting home and playing video games? Does he come to view himself as more and more competent to make his way in the world?

I would say he does not. I would expect that, by his own estimate, he will come to consider himself less and less worthy of honor and respect. I don't know that he would admit this to anyone, but I think his estimate of himself would decline.

Now, consider his wife. Should she consider him worthy of honor and respect? Is she acting with integrity if she fakes something she doesn't really believe?

I would say that his wife would have less esteem for him over time, that she would come to resent him, and that this would have a negative effect on her view of him as worthy of honor and respect.

Finally, I would say that I am not out to shame people, but if someone does act unjustly, I think they should bear the consequences of their decisions.

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#60

Post by jes »

maxerickson wrote: post #47
jes wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the online dictionary I consulted, dignity is defined as "The state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect." I think productive work is one means by which individuals can become more worthy of honor and respect. Thoughts?

What's the value of your honor and respect? I realize that sounds pretty dismissive, that isn't what I'm getting at. I'm asking a serious question about why you are framing the discussion in that way.

I don't mean to be dense, but I'm not sure I understand your question. I take you at your word when you say you don't mean to be dismissive.

I'm framing the discussion the way I am because of how I see the issues raised in the comment to which I initially replied.

Perhaps we are using different definitions for some of the terms that were used?

How would you frame the discussion? I will try to respond to that if you wish.

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