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The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

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Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#11

Post by santaclaus »

justinmk wrote: post #8
rewqfdsa wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I'm not sure what point you're making. If market forces can operate in a world with a 40 hour default work week, they can operate in a world with a 20 hour work week. At the macroeconomic level, we're talking about tweaking a coefficient. So what? By shortening the work week, we can give many more people an opportunity to engage in dignified work, give them more leisure time, and spur further investment in labor-…

That strikes me as a tangent, it raises many questions (What happens if I want to work more than 20 hours a week?). The idea of a "work week" is based on the salary model which is based on the idea that companies are magical job fairies that exist to provide jobs. What if I create a product and work on it more than 20 hours? What if I want to sell peanut butter at the local food market on the weekends?

> (What happens if I want to work more than 20 hours a week?)

I have friends in France who sneak into their academic research labs after hours because of this exact reason (well, not 20 hours, but set max work hours)... seems super silly to me.

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#12

Post by rewqfdsa »

santaclaus wrote: post #11
justinmk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That strikes me as a tangent, it raises many questions (What happens if I want to work more than 20 hours a week?). The idea of a "work week" is based on the salary model which is based on the idea that companies are magical job fairies that exist to provide jobs. What if I create a product and work on it more than 20 hours? What if I want to sell peanut butter at the local food market on the weekends?

> (What happens if I want to work more than 20 hours a week?) I have friends in France who sneak into their academic research labs after hours because of this exact reason (well, not 20 hours, but set max work hours)... seems super silly to me.

There has to be a mechanism for people who are truly passionate about their work, like artists, scientists, programmers, to follow their passions as far as they want. The danger, of course, is that intra-organization competition pressures people to work longer and longer hours. I'm willing to accept that risk so long as we make a shorter work week the default.

We're talking about an unusual case, though. You have to realize the most people hate their jobs. They're not following their passions. They find work tedious, uncomfortable, and frequently demeaning. For these people, the bulk of humanity, a cap on working hours frees them to do something they find much more interesting.

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#15

Post by the_cat_kittles »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #3

Enact a 20-hour work week. Our machines are powerful enough now that we should be able to devote our lives to human dignity, not work. Technology will only turn our world into a Dickensian hellhole if we let it.

you can kind of do that now. of course it doesn't work for everyone's occupation as easily. you just have to decide not to care how you compare to other people. most of humanity lived with nothing!

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#16

Post by cubano »

uberdeveloper wrote: post #14

Mediocre people are getting pushed out. This is a good thing for the efficiency of the economy.

By definition, "mediocre people" make up approx. 66% of the workforce. We are supposed to celebrate their inability to make a living?

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#17

Post by winter_blue »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #3

Enact a 20-hour work week. Our machines are powerful enough now that we should be able to devote our lives to human dignity, not work. Technology will only turn our world into a Dickensian hellhole if we let it.

> Enact a 20-hour work week

"Enact" implies the government restricting everyone to working 20 hours per week. That's a violation of our freedom to work as many hours as we want.

I do support you in that all of people shouldn't have to work in order to meet the basic needs of life today (food, housing, and connectivity). Agricultural and industrial efficiency and automization has advanced to a point where we can provide these basic needs to 90% of the populace with only 10% of people maintaining/operating these machines.

A lot of people will continue to work 50 or 60 hours, because a lot of humans are naturally inclined to work. They derive pleasure and satisfaction from it. I would myself personally continue working, perhaps even harder than I do now, but would direct my efforts towards things that I enjoy more, and that are potentially more impactful, meaningful, and beneficial to society. Ensuring that everyone's basic needs are met would give people great personal freedom to pursue what they want.

How would we implement this? One possible way is basic income -- although it might be beneficial to incentivize productive and meaningful use of freedom that basic income gives people. We don't want a country where 50% of the population spends time watching soap operas, and eating junk food.

Just some of my thoughts...

Re: The great reversal in the demand for skill and cognitive tasks (2013) [pdf]

#19

Post by tsotha »

None of this should come as a surprise. The powers that be looked at employment statistics and decided if everyone had a college degree we'd all be upper middle class and the toilets would clean themselves. But that's pushing on a string - increasing the supply of "cognitive" workers without increasing the demand just means there are going to be a whole lot of unemployed college graduates.
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