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The Trader Who Donates Half His Pay

nytimes.com

151–160 of 193 posts

Re: The Trader Who Donates Half His Pay

#151

Matt is a friend of mine, and someone who got career advice from what ultimately became 80,000 Hours, a startup non-profit I cofounded. I'm really happy to see the positive response on here; we've advised a lot of people to 'earn to give' and some people... let's say they aren't that happy about the idea that working in trading can be an ethical career. Anyone, if anyone feels inspired by the story and thinks they mi…

"... let's say they aren't that happy about the idea that working in trading can be an ethical career." Well, it's at least worth having a discussion about. If you are in a career where you honestly think damage is being done by your activities, you need to weigh that against whatever good is being done with the money you earn and give away. What about the traders involved in the near-collapse of the global economy i…

I agree it's important to think about; and that morally you can't just take benefits - harms = net good. It's reasonable at least to be more morally concerned about avoiding harm than about doing good. That said, I've never heard a plausible story about how someone like Matt is causing harm in his career (unlike he might be doing if he worked for tobacco companies, for example).

Re: The Trader Who Donates Half His Pay

#152
post #82
post #56

From the article: > First, where do we draw the line? If we’re prepared to donate one-third of our incomes to maximize happiness, then why not two-thirds? Why not live in a tent in a park so as to be able to donate 99 percent and prevent even more cases of blindness? This is an area where the writings of Scott Alexander (Slate Star Codex) have been really helpful for me. He refers to this as "Infinite Debt" ( http://…

The problem with that is that it only works if you believe that 10% makes sense. For me it doesn't - it is either 0% or whatever several 100% of my current income it would take to do my part (I don't see how not currently earning enough to repay would be enough to get me of the hook, certainly car payments are not payed in percentage of income). Thus, for me, the only answer that makes sense is that we have no obliga…

Actually, the 10% isn't intended to be the Objectively Correct Amount To Donate. If someone accepts any obligation to help their fellow humans, then the conclusion is that they have an (effectively) infinite obligation. However, people operating as if they have an infinite obligation tend to find a way to reject that, or simply shut down and ignore the problem. Thus, picking a lower percentage than 100 that can be endorsed can result in better outcomes than the alternative, and 10% is a nice round Schelling point. It sounds as if you reject the notion that you have an obligation to help other people, which I find interesting. Would you be willing to explain your thoughts on this?

Re: The Trader Who Donates Half His Pay

#153

I talked about this on HN a few years ago, but my friends and I planned to be this guy. In college we talked about all the money we'd make and how much we'd be able to donate. We all had a job offers for $32 - 42k/year. That was amazing! We were living on less than $1k/month in college. We had plans to give away 20%, 30%, or 50% of our income. We would barely even notice. Some of us even managed to do it for a few ye…

still you can start out simple and build from that. I give to two charities, Children's Healthcare of Atlanta and St. Vincents. I started out with a good amount per month automatically taken from my account. I became acclimated to that "bill" much as one does their car payment or home payment. It is in the range of a small car payment per month now and I only chide myself for not boosting it more. The idea is to make…

    I became acclimated to that "bill" much as one does their
    car payment or home payment. It is in the range of a small
    car payment per month now and I only chide myself for not
    boosting it more. The idea is to make it a routine expense
    so that you don't consider it a burden. The danger is
    forgetting to raise it or give to other good charities
    thinking you have done your part.
That's a great approach!

    It is not hard to find a charity to give money to.
Charities vary dramatically in how much good they can do with your money, so I'm not sure why you would say it isn't hard. With the charities you support, how much do you know about what your money does? Did you compare them with competing organizations? Getting into this much detail about charities is more than a full time job! At this point I mostly go by GiveWell's recommendations, but identifying really great charities isn't something I'd say is "easy".

(I'm not saying this to discourage you, what you're doing is really good!)

Re: The Trader Who Donates Half His Pay

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find most amazing is when bright Ivy League graduates go and do manual labour, like building a school, in a poor country with massive unemployment. It's not exactly playing to comparative advantage.

That's pretty much how they become brighter. These kinds of hands-on experience are far more transformative and contribute to higher efficiency than if they were to simply donate more money.

I agree volunteering abroad can be a great way to experience first-hand some of the problems in the world, which can lead you to do much more in your life than you would otherwise. I did it as a student and it was important in my life. But that's to say it should be a means to having a real impact later on, rather than an end in itself.

Re: The Trader Who Donates Half His Pay

#155
post #110
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be a downer, but it's pronounced "wah-GEE", with a hard G. source: used to work a few desks down from Matt.

Wow, now there's a guy guaranteed to have his name mispronounced 99% of the time (well, at least by people who have never heard it spoken). [ edited for typo ]

I know; his brother actually just gave up and started introducing himself as "Wage" (pronounced as you'd think) rather than "WAG-ee"

Re: The Trader Who Donates Half His Pay

#156
post #115

How many here are pursuing a similar goal? Donating 5%, 10%, even 50% of their pre-tax income? I love the effective altruist movement - it's pretty much what I spend most of my time thinking and reading about - but this is a very touchy subject to discuss casually so I've never met people in real life (or in my industry) who are also into this. My own goal is to give about 50% of lifetime earnings, though with the fl…

That's great! (I'm guessing I probably know you, but can't tell who you are). I'm hoping to donate >50% too; I've been donating about 10% but I've been on a low salary; next year I'll be able to do 50% I think.

Re: The Trader Who Donates Half His Pay

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only is 5% of one's income a rather high number, even the average amount that people give in the United States is far higher than the corresponding amount in other countries (ex: Japan). It may be the country's Christian leanings that contribute to this, but to be charitable is seen as a virtue and absolute good in this society. This is not necessarily the case in other societies.

> It may be the country's Christian leanings that contribute to this Maybe so. I was taught to tithe 10% of everything I earned starting with my grade school allowance. 10% to God (which could go to a church or charity) and 25% to the bank. Everything else got spent on Legos and whatnot. Fast forward twenty years (I'm 25) and I still siphon away 10% of my income into a separate account that I save for either church d…

Yeah, I seem to recall that the US gives a similar % of income as other countries once you subtract out donations to churches and to universities, which are both a much bigger thing than in other countries.

Re: The Trader Who Donates Half His Pay

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Function of aid is not to cause economic growth. Function of aid is to have a child not die of malaria.

The ciriticism is that malaria is just a symptom of the larger problem of a lack of economic growth and development. Aid can save a child from malaria, but it will never solve the underlying problem.

"""

Obviously there was a lot more to the Civil Rights movement than a lack of malaria. But it was one of the factors that helped. How likely is someone with “body aches, headache and nausea, general weakness, and prostration” to make it to the polls, to school, or to work? How likely are they to march on Washington?

It's easier to dream big from behind a windowscreen. Easier when you're not hungry. When you're not sick. When you're not weakened from parasites and malnutrition. And for those of us who would love to see systemic change, the "one-trick ponies" may be a good way forward. """

http://www.givinggladly.com/2013/08/malaria-one-trick-ponies...

Re: The Trader Who Donates Half His Pay

#159
post #144

"What is the moral code of altruism? The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value. Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes imp…

Gotta love Ayn Rand and her incredible ability to make bare, simplified, polarising dichotomies out of rich, complex topics, then paint the extreme opposite to her as evil, without examining whether her own chosen extreme may be equally evil. I mean, she really has taken the "build a straw man and set it on fire" approach to an art form (quite literally... and I'd add that the Fountainhead is a great book, if thoroughly misguided from a philosophical point of view).

Altruism as she defines it is obviously crap. What she fails to do is to clarify the extreme egocentrism that she proposes in an equally critical way. Here's an amusing attempt to do so using her own format:

> "What is the moral code of egocentrism? The basic principle of egocentrism is that other people have no right to exist other than for your sake, that service to you is the only justification of their existence, and that their sacrifice for your good is their highest moral duty, virtue and value.

> Do not confuse egocentrism with self-respect, self-awareness or respect for your rights. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, egocentrism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of egocentrism, the basic absolute, is the total unimportance of the other—which means; not caring one whit about others, using them for your own means, sacrificing their feelings and even their lives if necessary—which means: the other as a standard of evil, the self as a standard of the good.

> Do not hide behind such superficialities as whether you should or should not use people. That is not the issue. The issue is whether those people have the right to exist without being of use to you. The issue is whether you are really compelled to notionally support the existence, day by day, of people who are of no apparent use to you. The issue is whether your needs are the first mortgage on their life and the moral purpose of their existence. The issue is whether other people are to be regarded as sacrificial animals. Any man worth calling that will answer: “No.” Egocentrism says: “Yes.”"

As usual, the better place to sit is somewhere in the middle. No, you do not exist just to serve others, and total self-abnegation and sacrifice is certainly not a productive way to live. Neither, however, is total self-adoration and worship of your ego. Both are mistaken paths. The far better path is to realise that you need a balance of both respect for your own self, and connection to others, to live a good, fulfilled life.

For your own sake, fobcat, and not for mine, I hope you can read and understand the above...

Re: The Trader Who Donates Half His Pay

#160
post #6

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I've always felt it selfish when people of means partake in 'aid trips' over sending money to an appropriate organization. If you care to help, leverage your abilities efficiently; make the money doing what you're best at, and let others administer the aid.

I used to agree with this view, until I participated in an aid trip in college. When I personally saw what extreme poverty was, it changed the course of my life and future career decisions. So, the $1000 plane ticket and 10 days in a rural, high-need area allowed me to look outside the bubble of American extravagance I had grown up in. It is one thing to rationally know that people are without food and basic medicine…

That's an interesting perspective, and I'd be interested in seeing whether people who go on these sorts of trips end up giving more on average to charity across their lives than people who don't. If so, then the trips could be worth encouraging as a societal norm, not for the good that they do directly, but for the impact that they have on later donations. If the trips don't have much of an impact, then it would be better to discourage people from doing this, and societally encourage donations instead.
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