California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought • Hacker News Board

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#111

Post by spiralpolitik » Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

MichaelApproved wrote: post #19

krisroadruck wrote: post #10

I simply do not understand california's water shortage problem. They are by a frickin ocean. It's sunny nearly all year round. Solar powered or wave powered desalination is a fairly straight forward solution to this problem.

Here's an article that goes into the complications and controversies of desalination in California. http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_25859513/nations-large...

The reality of desalination is that apart from Karlsbad where they are already building one, there are very few places you could build a desalination plant and associated power plant without someone (rich person or environmental group) getting lawyered up.

Then you have the problem of getting the water from the coast to the Central Valley. Given that it's going to take 20 years to build 400 miles of train track I don't hold much hope getting pipelines of a similar distance getting built in under 10 years.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#112

Post by WalterSear » Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #86

jstalin wrote: post #2

We learned yesterday that 80% of water consumption in California is by agriculture[1]. Yet this executive order does nothing to reduce agriculture's use of water[2]. It only refers to use of urban water, lawns, landscaping, and cemeteries. Agricultural users just need to submit vague "plans." 1. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/30/how-growers... 2. http://gov.ca.gov/docs/4.1.15_Executive_Order.pdf

We need food. We don't need wasteful, water hungry lawns and we can make inefficient toilets and showers a little more water efficient with some cheap mods.

We don't need meat. We just convince ourselves we do.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#113

Post by bradleyjg » Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

sandworm wrote: post #34

There are limits to the governor's powers here. Much of the agricultural water comes from "rights" or easements attached to specific land. Ownership of farm X comes with the right to water from river Y. This is the "free" water often mentioned in news reports. Any reduction in these rights is viewed as a legal "taking" or condemnation of a property right by the state. Lawsuits for compensation will result. And they w…

Not necessarily. The idiotic prior appropriation system is a matter of state law and takings doctrine are a matter of federal constitutional law. The combination doesn't have a whole lot of case law at the Supreme Court level. It may well be the case that a coordinated change in both federal and state (statutory) law would be enough to work around the takings clause issue.

Even if all else failed it might well be better to bite the rentier tax once than to live with them forever. Remember takings only requires the payment of fair market value, and these water permits have limited alienability.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#114

Post by erispoe » Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

jconley wrote: post #43

olliej wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trees they're trying to keep alive have ridiculously high water consumption, almonds for instance consume 10s of litres of water for each _individual_ almond. They need to stop growing trees like that in a desert, which is what they're doing. The wells they are digging are tapping into the underlying aquifers that are the last resort, so they are in fact getting _free_ water while complaining about the cost. In e…

I know this is all straw man, but interesting stuff... Many crops use much more water than Almonds [0], I guess they're just fun to pick on. It'd be interesting to see a calorie/water comparison of many foods. Also, my family's farm spends more money on well water than the government supplied water due to the high cost of electricity for pumping. I do agree that a real market for water might help. The root of the pro…

Yes, many crops use more water than Almonds, but the main problems with almond trees is that they're slow to grow and you need to water them at all times, even in a severe drought. With seasonal crops, you have the option to switch to maybe less profitable but less demanding crops, or to lie fields fallow.

What we need in California is not necessarily crops that demand less water, because some years we have plenty of water, what we need is adaptability. Almond trees are terrible in that regard.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#115

Post by pkaye » Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 8:59 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #106

pkaye wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other way is if other states would grow more agriculture so there is more diversity.

Other states might grow more if their California competition wasn't subsidized so heavily with water.

Do you have any evidence of this that they are not growing more because California subsidizes water usage?

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#116

Post by erispoe » Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 9:00 PM UTC

BrainInAJar wrote: post #31

wnevets wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

someone has to protect our poor farmers, everyone loves farmers.

food shortage leads to revolution. The real problem here is we tried to turn a desert in to our national bread basket.

We have yet to see an almond shortage turn into a revolution though.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#117

Post by nordsieck » Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 9:00 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #77

teamhappy wrote: post #65

The first picture that pops into my head when I think of California is sprinklers on people's lawns. We don't really have them in Germany. I mean, of course we do, but people are hesitant to put them up because the first thing that will happen is your neighbours standing at the fence judging you for being so goddamn wasteful (seriously). Now, I'm not a huge fan of judging people (that's a lie), but I can't help but n…

> Another thing we don't really have is air conditioning (might be a climate thing). It's insanely wasteful and chances are you'll be sweaty anyway. The average high in Munich in July is 23 °C. In Los Angeles, it's 28.4 °C. In Death Valley, California, it's 47 °C. (That's average . The highest temperature ever recorded is 57 °C.) 23 °C is what most Americans set their air conditioners to. If it never got hotter than…

It's actually tragically common for older people in hot climates (e.g. Arizona) to eschew air conditioners and die.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#118

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 9:02 PM UTC

teamhappy wrote: post #81

SSLy wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another thing we don't really have is air conditioning (might be a climate thing). This one is a climate thing.

Certainly for California. But what about New York for example? Have a look: http://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/reports/2009/air-... // Can't find numbers for Germany, but I can tell you that I don't know anybody who has AC at home. (I'm not a hippie.) // You know how examples work, right? The data is pretty clear: More than 60% of households in the USA have AC.

[deleted]

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#119

Post by rogerbinns » Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

krisroadruck wrote: post #10

I simply do not understand california's water shortage problem. They are by a frickin ocean. It's sunny nearly all year round. Solar powered or wave powered desalination is a fairly straight forward solution to this problem.

Note that California's electricity "market" is anything but that, and a bizarre regulatory mess. You may remember Enron being bad many years ago, but they exploited the regulations. The net result is amongst the most expensive electricity in the country. The electricity companies aren't even allowed to set their own rates. http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2014/nov/19/citylights1-c...

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#120

Post by realityking » Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 9:04 PM UTC

teamhappy wrote: post #81

SSLy wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another thing we don't really have is air conditioning (might be a climate thing). This one is a climate thing.

Certainly for California. But what about New York for example? Have a look: http://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/reports/2009/air-... // Can't find numbers for Germany, but I can tell you that I don't know anybody who has AC at home. (I'm not a hippie.) // You know how examples work, right? The data is pretty clear: More than 60% of households in the USA have AC.

Fellow German here.

Summer in New York is significantly warmer than in Germany. Consider for starters that NYC is on roughly the same latitude as Madrid.

Different point but Germans seem to always be up in arms about the American use of air conditioning, and if it's to warm for them they should move to milder climate. Weirdly enough I've never heard anything like it about Nordic countries and heating.