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California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

nytimes.com

31–40 of 249 posts

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#31
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it seems pretty crazy that they are targeting the smallest sliver of water use for restrictions. I'd think we would want to limit the restrictions on everyday citizens and focus on the farmers who are fewer in number and, I would assume, easier to control as a whole than every citizen in CA...

someone has to protect our poor farmers, everyone loves farmers.

food shortage leads to revolution.

The real problem here is we tried to turn a desert in to our national bread basket.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#32
post #22

Why isn't california using the same technology people use for almost every other scarce resource? Markets. If you raise the price of water, people will start using less. I suspect there are some political reasons why this is not happening.

Yeah, why isn't the price of water being raised?

Because it is government controlled mainly, and at each level (state, district, municipal) there are way too many squabbling parties that would need to agree.

I recently listened to a great EconTalk (http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/03/david_zetland_o.htm...) on the subject.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#33
post #7
post #2

We learned yesterday that 80% of water consumption in California is by agriculture[1]. Yet this executive order does nothing to reduce agriculture's use of water[2]. It only refers to use of urban water, lawns, landscaping, and cemeteries. Agricultural users just need to submit vague "plans." 1. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/30/how-growers... 2. http://gov.ca.gov/docs/4.1.15_Executive_Order.pdf

Many farmers are getting no [0] water this year and are relying on ground water to keep trees alive or not planting seasonal crops. Others get a very small fraction of their typical allotment [1]. California water rights are complicated... [0] http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/environment/article11355200... [1] http://hanfordsentinel.com/news/in_focus/california_drought/...

The trees they're trying to keep alive have ridiculously high water consumption, almonds for instance consume 10s of litres of water for each _individual_ almond.

They need to stop growing trees like that in a desert, which is what they're doing.

The wells they are digging are tapping into the underlying aquifers that are the last resort, so they are in fact getting _free_ water while complaining about the cost. In essence they are stealing the water that other californians pay for.

At the same time they are asking for subsidies, to support a business model built on the ridiculously stupid idea of growing high water use crops in a _desert_.

The solution is to actually treat this as a free market (as most HN commenters seem to believe is the solution to everything), everyone pays the same amount for water, including farmers. This would mean farmers would actually make sane use of their water - maybe they can't grow almonds for a profit anymore, and switch to something else. They will probably fairly quickly find some new food stuff that people really want to pay lots of money for, but uses less water.

That's how things work.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#34
There are limits to the governor's powers here. Much of the agricultural water comes from "rights" or easements attached to specific land. Ownership of farm X comes with the right to water from river Y. This is the "free" water often mentioned in news reports. Any reduction in these rights is viewed as a legal "taking" or condemnation of a property right by the state. Lawsuits for compensation will result. And they will likely win. That is why the order avoids mention of agricultural uses.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#36

I simply do not understand california's water shortage problem. They are by a frickin ocean. It's sunny nearly all year round. Solar powered or wave powered desalination is a fairly straight forward solution to this problem.

Because the real problem is inland, so as well as desalinating the water (which is somewhat easier said than done, though I agree in principle), it would have to be pumped inland and mostly uphill for millions of miles.Our state water infrastructure is ancient, we just last year secured passage of a $9m bond to overhaul it, despite the vociferous objections of the farm lobby.

mostly uphill for millions of miles.

Not quite that far. San Francisco to New York is less than 3K miles. Maybe tens to hundreds of miles.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#37

There are limits to the governor's powers here. Much of the agricultural water comes from "rights" or easements attached to specific land. Ownership of farm X comes with the right to water from river Y. This is the "free" water often mentioned in news reports. Any reduction in these rights is viewed as a legal "taking" or condemnation of a property right by the state. Lawsuits for compensation will result. And they w…

You can't give away what you down own.

When the state gave rights to water to land holders it was well before we had the technology to meaningfully impact water levels and thereby impact other peoples access to water.

Since Roman times land ownership went from the highest heavens to the the deepest deeps, but the law was changed after blimps and other aircraft needed it and they certainly didn't need to pay off millions of people in Italy or anywhere else for that matter.

Same goes for pollution. When there are measurable impacts to other people (ie, my small use, home well went dry and now I need to ship in water at a much higher cost), farmers don't get to claim compensation.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#38
post #22

Why isn't california using the same technology people use for almost every other scarce resource? Markets. If you raise the price of water, people will start using less. I suspect there are some political reasons why this is not happening.

Regressive taxes are usually not very popular.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#39
post #22

Why isn't california using the same technology people use for almost every other scarce resource? Markets. If you raise the price of water, people will start using less. I suspect there are some political reasons why this is not happening.

Also, if farmers are blowing $100 of water to produce $5 of crops, that suggests some kind of "use it or lose it" system is going on, which means it can be eliminated without taking anyone's rights; rather, just give them the right to sell it, at which point significant water is freed up.

But I don't know the water rights system well enough to know if we're in that kind of situation.

Re: California Imposes First-Ever Water Restrictions to Deal with Drought

#40
post #35

Wait, they just imposed water restrictions? Wouldn't have that made sense to start like... near the beginning of all of this?

That would require somebody with intelligence and conviction to lead the push for change.

We don't have those people in politics in America any more.

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