Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think • Hacker News Board

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#151

Post by sokoloff » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:18 PM UTC

sirrocco wrote: post #148

sokoloff wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that there's a massive difference between 1MM and 10MM USD. The former is not enough to comfortably retire on at age 30 and heading up a household of 4. The latter is. That's a massive qualitative difference, IMO.

That's exactly what he said - it's a matter of luxury. Retiring at 30 is a luxury.

Extended far enough, so is not starving to death in utter squalor. One person's luxury is another person's normal.

I view retirement as "normal" and it's just a question of when. 30, 40, or 50 - none of those would I define as luxury-due-to-age.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#152

Post by cgearhart » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

nap wrote: post #114

cgearhart wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem though -- there is not equality is possibilities. Analysis [1] of a study from the Pew Research Center on economic mobility [2] found that you are 10x more likely to be in the top 20% if you're born there than if you're born in the bottom 20%. Someone born in the top 20% who doesn't go to college is still 2.5x more likely to have an income in the top 20% as an adult than someone from the bottom 20%…

This is analysis of results not possibilities. Having possibility doesn't means you have to use it. Having possibility to walk doesn't means you will walk same route and distance as an other person who has this possibility too.

Something is "possible" if we have an expectation that it might come to pass. How should we analyze possibilities except by looking at what actually happens? The premise of my counterpoint is that there is a probability distribution attached to what's possible, and that the distribution is not the same for everyone.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#153

Post by danans » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

nap wrote: post #145

metaphorm wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let me make pragmatic and ethical argument (about the ability of people to afford to pay taxes) that might help add some perspective that seems to be sorely lacking here. we are morally justified in taxing success BECAUSE it is success. its not because we desire to punish or disincentivize success (and indeed we must take care not to tax it too harshly for this reason), but simply put, success generates surplus and w…

Taxing is not morally justified BECAUSE it is a robbery. There is not failure taxing just because there is nothing to get from people who failed.

It seems like you think that redistribution == robbery.

I'm curious what is your preferred solution for financing public infrastructure. All private? Every street and sewer line is a company's property?

Even human societies like hunter gatherers redistributed food within their groups so some of them could concentrate on child rearing and basic tool making while others acquired food. Even if duties were shared, they couldn't all be done at the same time.

Redistribution of surplus was a major contributing factor which led to the specialization necessary to develop early technology like agriculture, which ultimately led to where we are today.

It was certainly a critical part of the creation of the American middle class and consumer culture after the second world war.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#154

Post by happyscrappy » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:36 PM UTC

metaphorm wrote: post #106

happyscrappy wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could not peacefully sustain such a disparity in wealth if the citizens were not living comfortably.

famous last words.

Almost the same disparity exists in Europe and they are imposing austerity so are they doomed?

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#155

Post by cgearhart » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:52 PM UTC

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #125

fullwedgewhale wrote: post #11

The point of the article is that the meritocratic system in this country is broken. In part this is because we have systematically transferred wealth out of the bottom to the top. For example, focusing on tax cuts that benefit high income individuals while cutting support for public colleges. These two things are usually done at different times with tax cuts usually to stimulate the economy and spending cuts coming t…

It's unclear that the mechanism you describe behaves as you claim. Supposing that it's true that a college degree confers (typically, on average, whatever) an extra million over a lifetime career, what would happen if everyone did attend college? Would that effect remain? If college educations become more common, they also become less scarce and valuable. You talk about how affordable it was in the 1960s, but this is…

The Supply/Demand analysis of college degrees assumes that education is a fungible commodity. In some ways that's true -- because many technical skills developed in pursuit of a degree are intended to be generally applicable. But there is also broad economic value in an educated population beyond the instantaneous value of the credential. A college education is about creating value by obtaining an education.

The central challenge of college today is not that everyone is going, but that everyone is going into so much debt to do it. Most people will be able to service their debt (in part thanks to the higher average earnings they'll realize), but it is coming at the cost of delaying other purchases. New grads can't afford new cars, houses, weddings, children, or savings. And the fraction of borrowers who can't afford their debt become a drag on the economy because it is so difficult to discharge.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#156

Post by totalrobe » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 6:18 PM UTC

RodericDay wrote: post #93

totalrobe wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equality of Opportunity as defined legally has nothing to do with taking care of the children. 1) n. a right supposedly guaranteed by both federal and many state laws against any discrimination in employment, education, housing or credit rights due to a person's race, color, sex (or sometimes sexual orientation), religion, national origin, age or handicap. Most human cultures are built on the nuclear family.. especia…

>> Most human cultures are built on the nuclear family >> Adam Smith lived in the clouds >> Family structures of one married couple and their children were present in Western Europe and New England in the 17th century, influenced by church and theocratic governments.[5] With the emergence of proto-industrialization and early capitalism, the nuclear family became a financially viable social unit.[6] The term nuclear f…

What are you getting at?

If you have some amazing Utopian plan where everyone has the same opportunities and equal chance to succeed at life regardless of which backwater hellhole they grow up in, please share.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#157

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #139

toomuchtodo wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes in the US are at the lowest levels since 1941 [1]. OP I replied to commented that the State was taking from them. Of course the State takes. It provides the framework you operate in that allows you to make that income. If anything, taxes should be much higher for a number we should agree on (whether that's $500K/year, $1MM/year, or $10MM/year is TBD). What group is the State taking "more than it should" from? […

What group is the State taking "more than it should" from? The poor, arguably (e.g. through regressive taxes).

I would agree with that.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#158

Post by Futurebot » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 6:44 PM UTC

Three things define American culture when it comes to economic values, decisions, and status:

1) The Lottery Effect "...the other main reason Americans seem so unperturbed by the widening chasm between the rich and everyone else is what I like to call the lottery effect. Buying lottery tickets is clearly an irrational act -- the odds are hugely stacked against us. But many millions of us do, because we see the powerful evidence that an ordinary person, someone just like us whose only qualifying act was to buy a ticket, wins our favorite lottery every week. For many Americans, the nation’s rowdy form of capitalism is a lottery that has similarly bestowed fabulous rewards on the Everyman." - http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/03/21/rising-wealt...

2) Last Place Aversion "that poor Americans’ antipathy toward redistribution might be due not to their desire to one day be at the top of the income distribution, but to their fear of falling to the bottom. We show that humans have a deep psychological aversion to being in “last place” -- recall the shame of being picked last in gym class -- such that individuals near the bottom of the income distribution may be wary of redistribution because it could help those just below them leapfrog above them." - http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/09/19/do-taxes-nar...

3) The Just World Fallacy "The just-world hypothesis (also called the just-world theory, just-world fallacy, just-world effect, or just-world phenomenon) refers to the tendency for people to want to believe that the world is fundamentally just. As a result, when they witness an otherwise inexplicable injustice they rationalize it by searching for things that the victim might have done to deserve it. This deflects their anxiety, and lets them continue to believe the world is a just place, but often at the expense of blaming victims for things that were not, objectively, their fault." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

Hopefully articles like this will get more people to understand these things.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#159

Post by joeclark77 » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 6:54 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #101

joeclark77 wrote: post #44

Nothing in the article explains why "economic inequality" is a bad thing. Which seems to be a logical pre-requisite to declaring it to be "worse than you think".

It's not necessary. Economic inequality is widely considered a social ill.

That's assuming the thing you want to prove. (I'm sure there's a Latin term for that, but I don't remember it.) It's a logical error that Margaret Thatcher blew apart beautifully probably before you were even born. (Bing the video.)

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#160

Post by Frondo » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 6:56 PM UTC

nap wrote: post #145

metaphorm wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let me make pragmatic and ethical argument (about the ability of people to afford to pay taxes) that might help add some perspective that seems to be sorely lacking here. we are morally justified in taxing success BECAUSE it is success. its not because we desire to punish or disincentivize success (and indeed we must take care not to tax it too harshly for this reason), but simply put, success generates surplus and w…

Taxing is not morally justified BECAUSE it is a robbery. There is not failure taxing just because there is nothing to get from people who failed.

Taxation is not robbery. Taxation is a way to pay the bill of being a citizen of a place.

Your confusion may arise from the following: In a robbery, someone takes something from you. With taxation, an organization takes something from you.

The difference is, in a robbery, you get nothing back. With taxation, you are getting something from the government, so you're actually just paying for that.