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Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

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Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#111

Post by dandare »

ryandrake wrote: post #99
dandare wrote: post #4

The fact that someone is rich does not mean he took anything from you, no matter how poor you are. Statements like "If poor people knew how rich rich people are, there would be riots in the streets" are not only stupid but also dangerous.

Gentrification as a counter-argument If my income remained the same, and suddenly all of my neighbors doubled their incomes, I would indeed be economically worse off. Everything would start costing more: Housing, groceries, health care, education--anything priced by a market, because "what the market will bear" has increased. While they're not technically "taking anything from you", when someone else gets richer, you…

Finally a valid point! It certainly has effect on things like global prices of bread when the rich regularly throw away 20% of their fridges or use crops for bio fuels. But the discussion in this article is more about the top 1%, I doubt you compete with them on the same housing or grocery market. Certainly there could be a spill.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#112

Post by metaphorm »

proveanegative wrote: post #90
metaphorm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a distraction. first off, why should we suppose we have "doubled the pizza"? I see no point in discussing abstract hypotheticals. We ought to stick to real world examples of the real world economy or else we're not really talking about anything meaningful.

[retracted due to a misleading argument from analogy]

you have a lot more work to do to establish that "the poor are not worse off in absolute terms". to conclude that you would have to take into account cost of living, inflation, quality of their (local, regional, and national) community, quality of their living situation, access to quality education, access to quality medical care, ability to meaningfully participant in civic life and governance, level of political participation and enfranchisement, and the impact of law enforcement and the criminal justice system. and that's hardly a comprehensive list, just a few things off the top of my head.

in other words, you really have no ability whatever to make judgments about the wellbeing (or lack thereof) of the poor if the only thing you're looking at is GDP (thats what your pizza pie metaphor represents, right?). that is a grossly inadequate measurement and drawing conclusions about the wellbeing of millions of people based on it is misinformed.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#113

Post by theorique »

ryandrake wrote: post #2

And, it's only going to get worse while [1] 39% of Americans either believe they are already among the top 1% or believe that they one day will be. If your mentality is one of "Don't tax the top because that's me (or will be)", you're going to constantly vote against your own economic self-interest, and continue to support policies that help the real rich get ultra-rich. 1. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/t…

Well, if we all work hard enough, we can all become members of the 1%...

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#114

Post by nap »

cgearhart wrote: post #70
nap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an equality in possibilities, not in results. You can't blame anyone because you are bad in investments or can't do business. If you tax people who reach success, why not tax those who was failed? Let's redistribute bankruptcy, depression and suicides.

That's the problem though -- there is not equality is possibilities. Analysis [1] of a study from the Pew Research Center on economic mobility [2] found that you are 10x more likely to be in the top 20% if you're born there than if you're born in the bottom 20%. Someone born in the top 20% who doesn't go to college is still 2.5x more likely to have an income in the top 20% as an adult than someone from the bottom 20%…

This is analysis of results not possibilities. Having possibility doesn't means you have to use it. Having possibility to walk doesn't means you will walk same route and distance as an other person who has this possibility too.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#115

Post by sanderjd »

icebraining wrote: post #100
ryandrake wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd build on that to point out that the systematic transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top is not something that "we're doing", but simply the natural product of capitalism. It doesn't require an evil mustache twirler sitting in a dimly list room scheming about how he's going to systematically conduct a massive wealth transfer. Wealth transfer is the natural result of any system that rewards the deployment of c…

Wealth transfer is the natural result of any system that rewards the deployment of capital with more capital. That's not what capitalism does, otherwise the Webvan investors would be massively wealthy. It rewards effective deployment of capital with more capital. And it often rewards ineffective deployment of capital with less of it. So you can have massive transfers of wealth from "side to side", not necessarily fro…

Certainly there are clear mechanisms for wealth transfer from both bottom to top and side to side. What is more interesting to consider is: What are the mechanisms for wealth transfer from top to bottom? From what I can tell, that sector is shrinking – as mass deployment of labor diminishes in importance – and has little prospect of recovery outside of government intervention. Would love to hear some different perspectives on that.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#116

Post by toomuchtodo »

icebraining wrote: post #105
toomuchtodo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to head to Somalia then. I hear they have a wonderful libertarian system setup. EDIT: Seriously folks, taxes pay for civilization. If you don't like it, don't work (so you don't have to pay) or leave. Roads, schools, fire, police, infrastructure aren't built with unicorn dust.

The context was the differences in tax rates, not taxes as a whole. You can support the concept of taxation while considering the State takes more than it should from certain groups.

Taxes in the US are at the lowest levels since 1941 [1]. OP I replied to commented that the State was taking from them. Of course the State takes. It provides the framework you operate in that allows you to make that income. If anything, taxes should be much higher for a number we should agree on (whether that's $500K/year, $1MM/year, or $10MM/year is TBD).

What group is the State taking "more than it should" from?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States...

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#118

Post by chimprich »

icebraining wrote: post #100
ryandrake wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd build on that to point out that the systematic transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top is not something that "we're doing", but simply the natural product of capitalism. It doesn't require an evil mustache twirler sitting in a dimly list room scheming about how he's going to systematically conduct a massive wealth transfer. Wealth transfer is the natural result of any system that rewards the deployment of c…

Wealth transfer is the natural result of any system that rewards the deployment of capital with more capital. That's not what capitalism does, otherwise the Webvan investors would be massively wealthy. It rewards effective deployment of capital with more capital. And it often rewards ineffective deployment of capital with less of it. So you can have massive transfers of wealth from "side to side", not necessarily fro…

On the whole, though, it is fairly easy to make more capital with capital (e.g. tracking the stock market, at least in the medium term). And the more capital you have, the easier it is to make more capital. In general, having more capital offsets deploying it effectively.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#119

Post by whybroke »

gkop wrote: post #94
warfangle wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, where can you save vacation and receive that time as paid as one big chunk?

California state law.

And non-competition clauses are unenforceable in California. Yet other states wonder why no mater how many tax incentive they give business, silicon valley remains stubbornly in CA.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#120

Post by JustSomeNobody »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #97

At least some inequality is the result of our choices. Meaning, Google's new CFO is going to make 70 mln. But, how many people would like to be CFOs? CFOs work crazy hours and have insane amount of responsibility - many people wouldn't want that tradeoff. So, should we somehow normalize inequality numbers for this phenomenon ?

RNs work crazy hours and have an insane amount of responsibility. Should they make $70 Million?
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