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Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#81

Post by proveanegative »

adamc wrote: post #51
proveanegative wrote: post #27

I think the popular conceptualization of economic inequality (effectively, "inequality is suffering") is misleading because it doesn't take marginal utility into account. What I mean is, take the pizza-dividing example and suppose we have doubled the pizza. The inequality (expressed as the ratio of pizza owned to the available total) would stay the same but those with the smallest part of the divide would be noticeab…

"...in a world where a minimum slice of pizza was a birthright of a citizen." We do not remotely live in such a world, or even such a country. (I'm referring to the U.S.)

Whether a basic income or even a basic job program is plausible under the current conditions in the US is very debatable (you can find yummyfajitas' criticism here on HN).

What I had in mind with my final remark is more about the future, i.e., "how to handle things when the machines take over".

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#82

Post by icebraining »

kjjw wrote: post #12
brador wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You honestly believe that people think "Don't tax the top because that's me (or will be)"? I suggest people believe their jobs and technological innovations we all enjoy are on the line if the rich are taxed more. If that is true or not is a separate conversation, but I don't think it's 39% of Americans think they will reach the 1%. That's absurd and the kind of thing you hear in mass media sound bites.

I'm quite sure it is completely true. In aggregate it is an absurd view for so many people to hold, but that doesn't mean it isn't held. Look at where we are! Hacker News - 10,000s of people talking around start ups! Pretty much none of us will "make it." Yet here we are.

Hacker News is far from just talking about startups and/or for people who expect to start one. I'm here to talk about tech. Startups are cool and all, but I wouldn't come here just for them.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#83

Post by [deleted] »

spuz wrote: post #68
spuz wrote: post #15

Is it just me, or does the article contradict its own conclusion? > They asked about 55,000 people from 40 countries to estimate how much corporate CEOs and unskilled workers earned ... the patterns were the same for all subgroups, regardless of age, education, political affiliation, or opinion on inequality and pay > One likely reason for this is identified by a third study, ... that suggests that our indifference l…

I would love to know why my questions trying to critically analysing the claims made in the article should be downvoted? I've made some pretty un-constructive comments on articles in the past but I don't think this was one of them?

[deleted]

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#84

Post by cadlin »

strommen wrote: post #43

Wow, the "ideal" wealth distribution based on what people want is simply nuts. If top quintile owns 35% and bottom two own 25% (perhaps 15% and 10%, respectively)...that means the richest would own 3.5x more than the poorest, on average. (If you think this makes any sense at all, consider the median American has a net worth of about $45K. Having 3.5x that amount wouldn't allow you to retire, or even own a 3BR house i…

Yes, but the average net worth is 301k. It doesn't make any sense to look at median numbers when talking about uneven wealth distribution. Of course the median is going to be very low, that's the whole point!

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#85

Post by ryandrake »

fullwedgewhale wrote: post #11

The point of the article is that the meritocratic system in this country is broken. In part this is because we have systematically transferred wealth out of the bottom to the top. For example, focusing on tax cuts that benefit high income individuals while cutting support for public colleges. These two things are usually done at different times with tax cuts usually to stimulate the economy and spending cuts coming t…

I'd build on that to point out that the systematic transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top is not something that "we're doing", but simply the natural product of capitalism. It doesn't require an evil mustache twirler sitting in a dimly list room scheming about how he's going to systematically conduct a massive wealth transfer. Wealth transfer is the natural result of any system that rewards the deployment of capital with more capital.

There exist lawmakers that focus on cutting taxes on the rich and reducing access to education, health care, and economic opportunity. While they are helping to widen the gap between the haves and the have-nots, they're unnecessary--the gap would widen with or without them.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#86

Post by cowardlydragon »

kokey wrote: post #5

I always feel a number of important metrics are left out, either by accident or on purpose, when people talk about inequality. Most importantly when it comes to wealth itself, by most measures there is a very, very long tail of people with no wealth. 'No wealth' ranges from the most poor, to those living from paycheck to paycheck all the way to those who have as much debt as their assets. Many of these people are fin…

"very, very long tail of people with no wealth"

Obviously the tail from median income to $0 is much shorter than the tail of median income to billions/year for BillG.

So... not sure your desired metrics are that meaningful.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#87

Post by ryandrake »

300bps wrote: post #76
whybroke wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>while the average worker can be anywhere in their career including eventually being a CEO one day From the article: > our indifference lies in a distinctly American cultural optimism. At the core of the American Dream is the belief that anyone who works hard can move up economically regardless of his or her social circumstances. Aside from the factual error in the notion that there's more social mobility in the US t…

there is a difference between "anyone can become CEO" and "everyone will become CEO" I favor a system that guarantees equality of opportunity. I do not favor a system that guarantees equality of outcome.

Well, neither of those systems exist, so discussing the differences between them is kind of pointless.

EDIT:

See the response by cgearhart in a different thread for links to actual citations. Upvote that user's comment instead of mine.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#88

Post by totalrobe »

RodericDay wrote: post #73
totalrobe wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't quite thought this out. Young parents die too, and children need to be provided for.

If you believe in equality of opportunity, parents should not be the main source of provision for children. Every time someone mentions "who will provide for your children if you don't leave an inheritance behind?" I immediately have to ask, "what about all the children whose parents are not able to leave them an inheritance (ie: most of them)?" It seems that it is you who have not really thought it out. Here's Adam…

Equality of Opportunity as defined legally has nothing to do with taking care of the children.

1) n. a right supposedly guaranteed by both federal and many state laws against any discrimination in employment, education, housing or credit rights due to a person's race, color, sex (or sometimes sexual orientation), religion, national origin, age or handicap.

Most human cultures are built on the nuclear family.. especially when it comes to raising children. I'm not sure what system you propose to replace that..

Adam Smith lived in the clouds. We live in a civilization where we have to consider actual use cases, transitions, exceptions, etc.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#89

Post by ufo »

mason240 wrote: post #54
tormeh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The allocation of money is about the same as the allocation of the economy's output. Someone's getting more out of it than others. If "him" disappearing from the economy would damage the economy more in dollars than he earns, then he's not taking your money. Otherwise he is. My guess is that the filthy rich add orders of magnitude less to the economy than they take out. Warren Buffet and Steve Jobs are probably excep…

This view seems to come from the mindset that the output of the economy is static and that there is a fixed amount of wealth.

The issue here is that wealth inequality is so massive that it ends up being a net negative even if the economy as a whole is growing.

What we are seeing nowadays is stagnant income for the middle class and skyrocketing wealth (and power) for the fortunate 0.1%

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#90

Post by proveanegative »

metaphorm wrote: post #77
proveanegative wrote: post #27

I think the popular conceptualization of economic inequality (effectively, "inequality is suffering") is misleading because it doesn't take marginal utility into account. What I mean is, take the pizza-dividing example and suppose we have doubled the pizza. The inequality (expressed as the ratio of pizza owned to the available total) would stay the same but those with the smallest part of the divide would be noticeab…

this is a distraction. first off, why should we suppose we have "doubled the pizza"? I see no point in discussing abstract hypotheticals. We ought to stick to real world examples of the real world economy or else we're not really talking about anything meaningful.

[retracted due to a misleading argument from analogy]
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