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Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

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Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#121
post #25

The estate tax should be near 100%. We do not need dynasties. I don't mind people making the wealth, but they can't take it with them. It shouldn't just transfer to their children.

You haven't quite thought this out. Young parents die too, and children need to be provided for.

I seriously doubt that there are a lot of young parents that are leaving more than $5,430,000[1]. Below that amount, it usually isn't necessary[2] to even file an estate tax return.

The idea that the estate tax ever applies to most people has been very successful propaganda for a long time. The estate tax should absolutely be very high, because the people leaving large amounts of wealth are generally the only people the tax would affect.

[1] for parents dying in 2015; future years will probably have a higher limit ( http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employ... )

[2] for actual legal advice, see a proper tax lawyer

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#122

And, it's only going to get worse while [1] 39% of Americans either believe they are already among the top 1% or believe that they one day will be. If your mentality is one of "Don't tax the top because that's me (or will be)", you're going to constantly vote against your own economic self-interest, and continue to support policies that help the real rich get ultra-rich. 1. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/t…

This is a total strawman that advocates of higher taxes tell each other. It's a pretty effective one because it allows those people handwave off anyone who disagrees with them.

> It's a pretty effective one because it allows those people handwave off anyone who disagrees with them.

Sort of like accusing someone of a strawman argument with nothing to back it?

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#123
post #4

The fact that someone is rich does not mean he took anything from you, no matter how poor you are. Statements like "If poor people knew how rich rich people are, there would be riots in the streets" are not only stupid but also dangerous.

Gentrification as a counter-argument If my income remained the same, and suddenly all of my neighbors doubled their incomes, I would indeed be economically worse off. Everything would start costing more: Housing, groceries, health care, education--anything priced by a market, because "what the market will bear" has increased. While they're not technically "taking anything from you", when someone else gets richer, you…

That depends on why your neighbors are richer, and how localized the efforts were.

For example, if your neighbors are richer because they've been developing food infrastructure, it's quite possible that your grocery bill has actually gone down, because food is more accessible and cheaper thanks to their efforts.

If we're just talking about one neighborhood, this is unlikely. But if we're talking about an entire economy, the poor people are quite likely to benefit as long as the wealth has come from developing the economy.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd build on that to point out that the systematic transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top is not something that "we're doing", but simply the natural product of capitalism. It doesn't require an evil mustache twirler sitting in a dimly list room scheming about how he's going to systematically conduct a massive wealth transfer. Wealth transfer is the natural result of any system that rewards the deployment of c…

Wealth transfer is the natural result of any system that rewards the deployment of capital with more capital. That's not what capitalism does, otherwise the Webvan investors would be massively wealthy. It rewards effective deployment of capital with more capital. And it often rewards ineffective deployment of capital with less of it. So you can have massive transfers of wealth from "side to side", not necessarily fro…

Sure - but "effective" here is essentially a random variable, and the central limit theorem does the rest.

"Wealth transfer" isn't transfer to/from particular individuals. As a group, the wealthiest will tend to accumulate wealth faster than everyone else. Furthermore, it may be possible for individuals to enter/leave this class, but it gets less likely the further you are from the dividing line.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#125

The point of the article is that the meritocratic system in this country is broken. In part this is because we have systematically transferred wealth out of the bottom to the top. For example, focusing on tax cuts that benefit high income individuals while cutting support for public colleges. These two things are usually done at different times with tax cuts usually to stimulate the economy and spending cuts coming t…

It's unclear that the mechanism you describe behaves as you claim.

Supposing that it's true that a college degree confers (typically, on average, whatever) an extra million over a lifetime career, what would happen if everyone did attend college?

Would that effect remain? If college educations become more common, they also become less scarce and valuable.

You talk about how affordable it was in the 1960s, but this is also a period when a relatively small portion did attend college. If we're willing to return to that rate of college education, the budget likely will make it possible to afford this...

Of course, the screams of institutional racism, sexism, and elitism will be deafening.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#126

The point of the article is that the meritocratic system in this country is broken. In part this is because we have systematically transferred wealth out of the bottom to the top. For example, focusing on tax cuts that benefit high income individuals while cutting support for public colleges. These two things are usually done at different times with tax cuts usually to stimulate the economy and spending cuts coming t…

I'd build on that to point out that the systematic transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top is not something that "we're doing", but simply the natural product of capitalism. It doesn't require an evil mustache twirler sitting in a dimly list room scheming about how he's going to systematically conduct a massive wealth transfer. Wealth transfer is the natural result of any system that rewards the deployment of c…

I'd certainly argue that the tremendous disparity is impossible to have under purist capitalism and entirely free markets. Assuming your starting point is not where all societies actually start from (destitute masses and lavish rulers) but instead have everyone start out equally educated and wealthy. You also have to discount corruption of the state, which is another critical aspect to the extravagance of elite wealth.

In a natural economy from a flat start you have people funding the interests of those with entrepreneurial spirit to form businesses. Assuming you have some form of social organization where those with the means and wit cannot just inflict violence upon others to get what they want, what generally happens is that capitalists build industry to create goods everyone else wants, while paying others to work for them where they get more money from the labor than the worker gets in pay.

Naturally, the total wealth of the workers must decline while the capitalists profits rise. But the capitalists want more money, and the only way to really put their money to work is either internal investment in their own company, or funding the ventures of others. Rather than the base state group funding of an individuals venture, you have one or few wealthy sponsors funding new ventures.

That does mean that over time you get fewer and fewer capitalist entrepreneurs that are successful, because less money goes into making someone elses business dreams come true and more goes into making the established businesses stronger.

But in that natural capitalist market you cannot do many of the things modern American companies do to exploit markets and produce unnatural profits. All of which require the violence of the state to perform, which is why government is always a double edged sword - you need something to protect the people from violence in the first place, but that just gives the violence to an influencable, corruptable group, and money - especially concentrated - talks.

But it is much harder to get a monopoly in laissez faire system where you cannot use regulations and ordinance to block competition the way almost every major business in the US does. Be it (ab)use of the patent system, abuse of zoning, abuse of permits, abuse of straight up law, companies constantly goad politicians into giving them an unfair advantage.

In that free market if someone starts abusing their growing monopoly for profit it opens up infinite room for competition because the only barrier to entry to a goods or service market is the ability to produce it. That requires a whole economy of productive goods markets - but you can always fill the gap from the start wherever monopolies arise, and while you can have monopolies form, they cannot act against the market for long without opening up room for competition - they have to skirt the border where their goods and services cost just enough to disincentivize competition which means just below new-entry market rates, and that is after all extrinsic influencers outside price - business practices and ethics, employee retention and satisfaction, and general reputation. Look no further than Wal-Mart for an actual example of a business that competes at below market prices but loses significant business to its own awful reputation.

So my point is that while capitalists in a laissez faire system can perpetually concentrate wealth, it really cannot happen nearly as fast as it has in the last fifty years because you need regulation to capture markets as completely as so much of American enterprise has.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#127
The problem isn't wealth. The problem is poverty.

There isn't much of a practical difference between 1MM and 10MM or 10MM and 100MM. Or even 10K and 100K. It's not that there isn't any difference, it's just that (ignoring extreme scenarios like having to pay medical bills in the US) the difference is mostly a luxury.

But below a certain threshold, it's not a matter of luxury. It's a matter of being able to afford the bare necessities.

I don't make 100K/month. Right now I don't even make 10K/month. To be honest, I'd probably be able to cope (as I have had to in the past) with as little as 1K/month or less. But I don't mind if some investment banker or Fortune 500 CEO makes several orders of magnitude than me.

The problem isn't just that someone who works two full-time jobs can barely afford the absolute minimum of necessities. The problem is that making money is a requirement to have access to these essentials. We don't need more jobs, we need better social care. We don't need to cut rich people's wages, we need to eliminate poor people's reliance on wages to keep them housed, fed, warm, healthy and content (or "maintained" if that sounds less socialist and more business-y).

Minimum wage is a red herring. Minimum wages are (and should be) dictated by economical concerns alone. It's impossible to regulate them. You can dictate numbers, but that doesn't solve the problem they're meant to address.

Minimum wage jobs are not only useless because they can't pay for a living. They're also useless because they generally don't offer any opportunity for personal advancement. If you mop floors at McDonald's for a living, you're likely not going to turn that into a career. If anything, it's a stop-gap, but any effect it will have on your future occupations will likely have nothing to do with the actual tasks you performed (except maybe for a marketing sob-story if you make it big).

So separate the two concerns: give people what they need whether they have a job or not, and pay them whatever is economically sensible for any job they take.

Basic income and/or strong social services are a better solution than always trying to regulate businesses into supplying sufficient wages against market demands. If anything, the latter just encourages businesses to eliminate those minimum wage jobs entirely to reduce unnecessary costs.

You can't compete with technological progress. If you artificially inflate wages, that just makes the humans even less appealing.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#128

The point of the article is that the meritocratic system in this country is broken. In part this is because we have systematically transferred wealth out of the bottom to the top. For example, focusing on tax cuts that benefit high income individuals while cutting support for public colleges. These two things are usually done at different times with tax cuts usually to stimulate the economy and spending cuts coming t…

Wealth transfer because of the tax code occurs all the time, every day. Yet some here I can guarantee would scream bloody murder if they lost their piece of that wealth transfer. Two of which are easy, the ACA and EV tax credits, both transfer wealth but in different ways. The first from the young and healthy who usually are at the beginning of their income generating years and hopefully their lowest pay in their car…

Which is why it will never happen. It is against every elected representative with voting power to fix the American tax code to do so because they gain significant power with a system nobody can interpret without significant mental and time commitments.

You basically have to elect a majority of honest politicians to congress all running on the platform of fixing the tax code, and if you managed to perform that miracle greater than walking on water while turning it to wine, you would still be conceding literally every other political position to them because you had to do the most insane systemic uprising of policy in American history since prohibition, and anyone elected to vote for that would have their own anterior motives and agenda to replace the power vacuum from losing the tax morass.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#129
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite sure it is completely true. In aggregate it is an absurd view for so many people to hold, but that doesn't mean it isn't held. Look at where we are! Hacker News - 10,000s of people talking around start ups! Pretty much none of us will "make it." Yet here we are.

Hacker News is far from just talking about startups and/or for people who expect to start one. I'm here to talk about tech. Startups are cool and all, but I wouldn't come here just for them.

To be fair, an arse and utterly pedantic, I didn't say it was just talking /about/ startups.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#130
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, but it also does not mean that he didn't take anything from me. Generally, the US tax code is designed in such a way that capital begets capital. Put differently, if you make money passively from the money you already have, you pay a lower tax rate then if you haul brick on your back, or teach children. Is this taking? No, not directly, but indirectly, sure.

Apples and oranges. Ordinary income is not capital gains. If you buy your first stock, you are using money that was already taxed at the ordinary income tax rate.

I don't get why it is apples and oranges. Why is it fair to take 45% of the income I toil for, but it's OUTRAGEOUS to take 25% of someone's passive investment.

>If you buy your first stock, you are using money that was already taxed at the ordinary income tax rate.

Which is why we only tax the amount gained. I don't see why it should matter if the gain is an investment or working.

And a lot of my salary is a return on an investment that I made into my own education and training.

IMO, captial gains should be adjusted for inflation* and then taxed like any other income.

*you really do a have to adjust for inflation. Right now inflated gains (which aren't real) are taxed as if they are.

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