“Today we moved into our new Facebook building” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#361

Post by michaelochurch » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 12:32 PM UTC

onewaystreet wrote: post #318

JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

Isn't the notion that private offices are better than open floor plans disproven by reality? Tech companies predominantly use open floor plans and these same companies are some of the most successful in the world. What companies would proponents of private offices point to as counterexamples?

There are a number of reasons to use open-plan offices, not all disreputable, as I explained here: https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2015/03/02/open-plan-of...

That said, a common reason for it is back-door age discrimination. Plenty of companies use open-plan offices without such an intent (they "look" busy, which pays off in marketing, and they're cheap) but the open-plan fetishism is all about "culture fit", meaning exclusion of the old, the female, the lower-than-upper-middle-class, and all disabilities except early stage alcoholism.

Tech companies are, in general, very badly managed. It doesn't prevent them from being successful because technology is so powerful that it compensates for inept management. I see this as a good thing in the long term (imagine what this industry could do if it wasn't run by idiots) but, culturally, it's bad because the worst attributes of "startup culture" are infecting the whole economy.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#362

Post by oe » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 12:32 PM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #264

JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

Having spent almost equal amount of time in open office and private office, my own anecdote is that productivity wasn't dramatically better with private offices. In open offices, I just used to put head phones on, listen to non-vocal music and be super focused for many hours. In fact that was much better than private office because others would see you wearing headphone and they don't want to bother you. In private o…

The problem in open offices is that I DON'T see people around me working hard. Instead they are talking about dogs, what kind of candy they prefer and how their friend found someone from Tinder. It's super hard not to listen, even with headphones on. The only thing that almost works are these noise-cancelling headphones, but you still need to blast some pretty loud music. I'd rather sit in a room coding :(

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#363

Post by michaelochurch » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 12:34 PM UTC

kzhahou wrote: post #291

People always talk about the terrible NOISE in open office plans. For me, I hate the feeling of BEING WATCHED. It's just unnerving. There's people all around me with low cube walls... * I want to stare ahead as I focus - someone's looking at me. * I have my big headphones on and am rocking to the music - someone's looking at me. * I wanna put my head down on desk and think - someone's looking at me. * I check gmail -…

For me, I hate the feeling of BEING WATCHED. It's just unnerving.

Agree. It's practically abusive. Even if you're a great worker, pillar of the community, whatever, the fact remains that a surveillance state is an anxiety state.

The problem is that this industry is now fueled by the eagerness of clueless 22-year-olds who've never had a serious health problem or personal matter that interferes with work, who still think they're immortal, and buy into that "if you have nothing to hide" fallacy. Fuck that shit.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#364

Post by zhte415 » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 12:35 PM UTC

Fiahil wrote: post #107

notatoad wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they made a building that covers 9 acres and put dirt and grass and trees on top of it.

Yes, obviously, but how is it possible for the building to withstand the weight of the dirt, grass and trees?

Grass and trees don't weigh a lot, compared to dirt, or earth, or water-laden earth. Compare a moderate snowfall of a couple of feet with a foot of dirt and some rainfall.

But these should be zoned, yes.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#365

Post by michaelochurch » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 12:47 PM UTC

I'm surprised that I'm the only one to mention the (in this case, young, preening, "hip" and twinkish) elephant in the room behind this open-plan nonsense. Age discrimination. In a Daniel Day-Lewis There Will Be Blood voice, "Aaaaagggge discrimination, Eli, you boy!"

Companies use these horrible office layouts for a number of reasons, and not all are so distasteful: everyone else is doing it, they're cheap, and they take good pictures for marketing because they "look busy". But, when you get to the core of it and the leadership behind this open-plan fetishism, it's all about age discrimination.

Life changes make people less able to handle the chronic visibility (especially from behind) that these offices inflict. For women, pregnancy will do the trick. Men tend to like open-plan offices less after having children as well, because when you have kids you no longer perceive the world as free of danger, due to having a biological imperative to protect another creature, and you stop believing in the "nothing to hide" bullshit that convinces people to accept such invasions into their privacy. But even in childless people, the ability to handle the needless stress inflicted by open-plan offices seems to decline around age 30.

There's also a stress that comes from incoherent noise when it comes from all angles. This is something that scuba divers are aware of, because of the way water plays with sound. It can exacerbate the "blue orb phenomenon" that can cause an open-water freak-out (which sounds, presumably unintentionally, similar to an open-office panic attack).

This is especially bad for technology. The cruelty of software's age discrimination is that it takes 10-20 years just to be good at this stuff. People are pressured to leave the industry long before their prime.

Oh, and there's a 1 to 2 percent per year chance, even in healthy people, that you get a life-altering anxiety or panic disorder if you do knowledge work in an open-plan office. (They aren't as bad for less cognitively intense tasks.) That doesn't show up in the marketing materials, and the casualty rate is low enough that few people talk about it, but it's a factor as well.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#366

Post by VLM » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 12:50 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #266

JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

This is why I only work remotely. Too many tech companies are up their own asses with how hip and cool their offices are. I just want to work when I want, how I want, and in an environment of my own choosing. I 100% understand that collaboration needs to take place at certain times and I really do enjoy the collaboration of remote work with other employees. However the "collaboration" that takes place in these types…

"However the "collaboration" that takes place in these types of offices is just wheel spinning and time wasting."

I enjoyed how you phrased that. I work at a giant multinational and yes yes I know all about the stereotype that innovation only comes from the tiny little startups on HN, but innovation flows both ways, like it or not, and over the last decade one megacorp major cultural shift I've seen is collaboration only happens in email because its documented and highly accountable. If you really want to share opinions or idea or requirements or demands in a verifiable documented backed up permanent fashion then you put it in email. You don't have a "real" opinion until its written down and sent in email.

If you just want to talk about sports or the weather or gossip about colleagues or lie to someones face about a due date or product change or a spec, you exclusively do that verbally on the phone or in a meeting or text. Non email based collaboration is seen as a fake waste of time, because, lets face it, it is. If you're too much of a coward or crook to put your name to a statement, then its not worth reading. If someone refuses to document what they're saying in email or a bug ticket they are pretty much treated as liars or ignored. Its an interesting cultural shift. I have one older boss (yeah office space style I have a couple bosses, informally) who is all about the "personal" nature of a phone call or meeting, but its always super ineffective. He's still a nice guy and overall a good manager, but "old people thinking" is holding him back compared to the other mgmt who have moved on with the times.

It seems to work extremely well, especially with multi-office, multi-timezone, multi-national, multi-company teams. (edited to add, and this factors into the "scalability" mantra heard so often on HN... don't set yourself up to fail, operate like a big company from the start) And violating the "new way" by only communicating verbally or in meetings seems to dismally fail fairly often.

This large company innovation will probably spread to the smaller companies sooner or later.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#367

Post by irishcoffee » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 12:52 PM UTC

calinet6 wrote: post #357

Tiksi wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Extrovert here, former introvert (yeah, it's not fixed). Off topic, but how did you "convert"? Was it a conscious effort or did it just seem to happen? I ask mostly because I had a period of a few years where I felt like I leaned closer to extroversion, but now I'm pretty firmly an introvert, and I'd like to be able to push it back to the other side, but can't quite figure out how exactly to do that. As far as offic…

I did several things, I think. And it does fluctuate. - College in an extremely social club environment (marching band) - Moved across the country to a new place, forced me to meet new people, change social skill set - Moved from small companies to fast growing larger company, with mostly introverted people around me, I tended to fill out the gaps - Role more focused on personal interactions - New romantic relationsh…

If I'm not mistaken, you define introvert/extrovert by personal preference. e.g. when you need to recharge your batteries, would you rather be hanging out with 20 people, or alone on a walk?

What you described was your path to developing social skills, which is great.

I am an extremely social person. Many different groups of friends, very social at work, love going out and am always up for just about anything. I know I am an introvert because I need alone time in order to recharge.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#368

Post by JustSomeNobody » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 12:54 PM UTC

S4M wrote: post #347

lightblade wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Of course private office is better. In an open office, I always have to worry about if my fart is too loud for the person next to me to hear. It's like every time I have to pass gas, it interrupts my train of thought so I get to let out a silent one. Or even better, some times I have headphones on, and totally forgot that I'm in an open office. In a private office, I wouldn't have to worry about this.

You made an excellent argument for private offices. There, we don't have to share farts.

Unless ya walk in on one. The reason farts are loud is because the noise is an early warning device.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#369

Post by isaacdl » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 12:59 PM UTC

qq66 wrote: post #300

pyrophane wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have worked in both a private office and an open floor plan. I do really enjoy working around other people in an open office, and it makes impromptu planning more accessible, which I believe aids productivity for self organizing teams. The downside is, as you mentioned, that it can be really difficult to get focused work done. This is especially true if there are other teams sharing the same open space (project man…

I know of people who wear headphones at work not playing any music, just as a signal to other people not to disturb them.

I've done this for years, even working on homework in my college cafeteria or other public space. It's actually an interesting social phenomenon: if I'm sitting at a table surrounded by textbooks, notes, and my laptop, people have absolutely no problem coming up and starting a conversation; if I'm sitting at an empty table with nothing but a plate of food in front of me, but with headphones in, not a soul will disturb me.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#370

Post by VLM » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 1:02 PM UTC

neuronic wrote: post #344

drewg123 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work as a fairly senior SWE at Google, coming off 20+ years with private offices (some of that time full-time remote), and I agree with everything you said. I knew it would be hard going into the job. I actually get up at 5am so I can have a few quiet hours at my desk before the rest of the folks show up & it turns into a total zoo.

My question isn't necessarily specific to Google, but is it frowned upon if you bring noise-cancelling headphones? I am a weirdly fluctuating person and some days I work best in total seclusion. Others I need to sit in the middle of a cafe and have the noise and people around me. So my goal is to be as adaptive as possible without harming the day-to-day work life.

"but is it frowned upon if you bring noise-cancelling headphones"

Yes, at (former, thankfully) employer its the border between actionable offense (being written up) and merely being viciously trashed at review time. Management made the explicit decision to enforce collaboration (a 'la the whippings will continue until morale improves) and your actions are direct and intentional insubordination of that explicit formal requirement.

One person will get yelled at in front of everyone else (because its open office, duh) and nobody will dare to wear headphones again.

Its hard to find a more open and shut case description of intentional willful trivially documentable insubordination.