“Today we moved into our new Facebook building” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#261

Post by kamaal » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 3:58 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #224

Jonovono wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always think the best would be a bit of both. Having the option to go in a private room and do your work or work out in an open area with people where you can easily throw around ideas and what not. But i've never had a problem in an open space. You don't wear headphones or a way to indicate to others to not disturb you? And surely you can see where some of the other things you talk about are good for you right? 'c…

I totally agree: most engineers need to engage in both modes of work (solo and collaborative) in the course of their work week. The collaborative time is crucial: I've worked in places where there was no culture of collaboration; sometimes programmers working solo would "go dark," spend days going in the wrong direction, or spend inordinate amounts of time spinning their wheels because they were stuck on technical is…

>>sometimes programmers working solo would "go dark," spend days going in the wrong direction, or spend inordinate amounts of time spinning their wheels because they were stuck on technical issues that other engineers could have helped them with very easily.

If this sort of things aren't getting caught in your daily stand up meetings then your tech leads/managers to whom your paying big money salaries are working as nothing more than glorified email routers.

In which case merely flattening all walls in your office and creating a fish market is hardly going to solve any issues.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#262

Post by JohnBooty » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:00 AM UTC

qq66 wrote: post #249

JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

As a counterpoint, I recently moved from an open-plan office to a private office at Microsoft, and I definitely prefer the open plan. I feel more energized in an open plan, and I now make it a point to walk around the halls and drop in on people who are open to it (green status light on the door).

This is fascinating to hear. I'm curious: did the open-plan office have private spaces available for when you needed them?

  >  I now make it a point to walk around the halls and 
  > drop in on people who are open to it (green status 
  > light on the door).

That's funny and interesting that they have actual lights on their doors. When I ran my own consulting thing and worked from home a lot (often at odd hours) my partner and I joked about having a radio-style "ON AIR" light above the door so she'd know when I was working; sounds like Microsoft is actually doing something like that!

In offices with "normal" doors sans lights I usually just use the time-honored system: completely shut door means "please don't interrupt unless you're telling me the building is on fire," a completely open door means it's party time, and if my door is open just a crack that means I'm working but you can come in and talk if you need me.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#263

Post by pyrophane » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:01 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

I have worked in both a private office and an open floor plan. I do really enjoy working around other people in an open office, and it makes impromptu planning more accessible, which I believe aids productivity for self organizing teams.

The downside is, as you mentioned, that it can be really difficult to get focused work done. This is especially true if there are other teams sharing the same open space (project managers, designers, etc, etc). The thing that really made it better for me was to get a pair of noise canceling headphones and listen to the right music while I coded. That pretty effectively blocked out almost all of the external noise, or at least brought it down to a level where it wouldn't break into my head space and kill my concentration.

There is still the problem of people feeling more free to interrupt you for every little thing if you are in an open office layout. The only way I've found to mitigate that has been to just try to inform people (in a nice way) how I work and what it does to my productivity when someone breaks in on me during the middle of something. I also try to have a couple of blocks of regular non-coding time during which I keep my headphones off, usually right after team meetings. That way everyone knows that when there is a good time to come talk to me.

At the end of the day I do like the way collaboration works in an open office, but it does require some extra effort to stay productive when your job requires a lot of very directed concentration.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#264

Post by sytelus » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:04 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

Having spent almost equal amount of time in open office and private office, my own anecdote is that productivity wasn't dramatically better with private offices. In open offices, I just used to put head phones on, listen to non-vocal music and be super focused for many hours. In fact that was much better than private office because others would see you wearing headphone and they don't want to bother you. In private office, anyone is welcome to distract me anytime and I have to entertain that because person walked all the way to my office no matter how focused I was on something.

Another thing is that teams with private offices suffer greatly in communication and more importantly in energy and passion. Teams in open office often go to lunch together, have more personal exchanges and have far more socialization. When people see their teams working hard around them, they have little excuse not to follow the suit. In private offices, I often see people catching up on news websites and FB and in fact I even knew a guy who freely admitted that he spent entire days on YouTube. These were smart people and it's not that they were slacking off but most people are actually fairly weak against distractions generated from their own computer. Those distractions in private offices far out number distractions by people in open office.

A 3 person team packed in to a private office is likely the best of both worlds. In private offices, you mostly rely on bumping in to someone in the lobby for serendipitous discussions. Unless your work is isolated and you don't need to talk to anyone, open office is usually better option generally speaking. However I agree that people working in open office have to establish proper norms such as don't talk loud, put phones on vibrate, for long talks go outside, don't disturb a person wearing headphone etc. In most places, I see these norms are generally established.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#265

Post by kamaal » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:06 AM UTC

guptaneil wrote: post #228

danjayh wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thought when I read that line was "sounds like hell". Also, I bet Zuck has an office to call his own.

Actually, last time I visited Facebook HQ, Zuck's desk was in the open space just like everybody else. I was quite surprised.

I don't know about Mark Zuckerberg, In general these show and tell offices are generally a sham. Even if they have a desk in the open work space I'm pretty darn sure its there just as a small time gossip catch up area with other colleagues.

Their actual office work, meetings, decision making and nearly everything else will be happening from a 'meeting room'. So in essence they will have a private office in which they will spend most of their time in.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#266

Post by ryanSrich » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:14 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

This is why I only work remotely.

Too many tech companies are up their own asses with how hip and cool their offices are. I just want to work when I want, how I want, and in an environment of my own choosing. I 100% understand that collaboration needs to take place at certain times and I really do enjoy the collaboration of remote work with other employees. However the "collaboration" that takes place in these types of offices is just wheel spinning and time wasting. It truly is the art of not working. It's all about how you look in front of managers (who are really only interested in asses in chairs and looking good to their managers...the cycle of doing nothing continues).

I really prefer having all hands with other remote employees 6-10 times per year where everyone is together in the same room. The meetings and collaboration that comes out of these is much more meaningful. Time is of the essence so we make it count.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#267

Post by zak_mc_kracken » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:20 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #187

zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would, for the right salary.

I would, yeah. To put a dollar value on it? Maybe 25%-50% more than I'd need to work at a similar company with working environment that encourages calm and focus. And I'd be perpetually ready to jump ship to another company with such an environment. I also wouldn't be nearly as productive as I could be otherwise. Those three things all have dollar values attached - in the tens of thousands of dollars, each.

Or you might find out that you don't mind the open floor plans that much after all and that it's largely compensated for by the people you work with, the project you work on and noise cancelling headphones. And who knows... crazy thought: you might end up enjoying the constant buzz and energy going around you during the day, knowing that you can choose to participate in it or just isolating yourself completely from it whenever you choose.

Best of both worlds.

Keep your mind open, give yourself the opportunity to try it one day, you might be surprised. Besides, it's pretty much a requirement if you ever look for a job in the Silicon Valley.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#268

Post by yashap » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:24 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

Everybody's different, no solution will work for everyone. Personally, I work MUCH better in open spaces with some background noise, that's what puts me in the zone. If I had to work in a personal office/cubicle/whatever, I wouldn't be productive.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#269

Post by mathattack » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:24 AM UTC

nerfhammer wrote: post #194

mathattack wrote: post #91

I think the type of office space needs to meet the group's work. If solitary quiet work is required, you need either lots of quiet spots or a liberal telecommuting policy. If you need lots of communication, open is fine. I'm surprised that open works there, but Zuckerberg is a developer and has hired most of the senior team. They must have data that it works for them.

> Facebook's engineering director Jocelyn Goldfein spoke about open office plans during her recent talk at Stanford. She explicitly stated that it decreases her team's productivity, but that it was embraced because it promotes "openness" which is a core value at Facebook. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5768771

It takes courage to fess up to that!

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#270

Post by forrestthewoods » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:26 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

Are there any pics of this giant open space? I'm inclined to agree with you, but I'd like to at least see it before passing judgement.