Salesforce won't travel to Indiana over religious freedom law • Hacker News Board

Re: Salesforce won't travel to Indiana over religious freedom law

#21

Post by Torgo » Thu, Mar 26, 2015, 8:49 PM UTC

api wrote: post #7

keehun wrote: post #3

I support the seemingly-exaggerated response of Salesforce. In a risk of starting a religious flame war, I don't understand those of faith who discriminate against anyone else for any reason. Jesus called on His believers to love your neighbors as you love yourself. "There are no commandments greater than these" (from Mark 12)

I also don't understand why things like homosexuality are orders of magnitude more important than all the other sins named in the Bible -- and often far more clearly and unambiguously. You don't see Christians protesting outside credit card companies because they engage in usury, or against companies that make their employees work on Sundays, or for policies to help the poor, or anything else like that. Ultimately wh…

They are lost causes, and you're generally not personally compelled to use them (except the ACA, now.)

>People think gays are icky and weird

http://research.vtc.vt.edu/news/2014/oct/29/liberal-or-conse...

People with stronger disgust response tend to be conservative.

Re: Salesforce won't travel to Indiana over religious freedom law

#22

Post by anon808 » Thu, Mar 26, 2015, 8:49 PM UTC

wl wrote: post #9

keehun wrote: post #3

I support the seemingly-exaggerated response of Salesforce. In a risk of starting a religious flame war, I don't understand those of faith who discriminate against anyone else for any reason. Jesus called on His believers to love your neighbors as you love yourself. "There are no commandments greater than these" (from Mark 12)

I think you have to look at what motivated laws like this. In one famous example in Arizona, an anti-discrimination law penalized a wedding photographer who refused to work a same-sex wedding. It's not that people want the right to not serve gay people at Chick-fil-a.

yes, there are people that want to the right to not serve gay people at chik-fil-a.

Substitute the word 'same-sex' with 'black' in that famous example you mention and it should become obvious why laws like that are needed (and were needed 50 years ago).

Re: Salesforce won't travel to Indiana over religious freedom law

#23

Post by davebindy » Thu, Mar 26, 2015, 8:51 PM UTC

keehun wrote: post #3

I support the seemingly-exaggerated response of Salesforce. In a risk of starting a religious flame war, I don't understand those of faith who discriminate against anyone else for any reason. Jesus called on His believers to love your neighbors as you love yourself. "There are no commandments greater than these" (from Mark 12)

As someone from Indiana, and a person of faith, I've followed this fairly closely.

To call the response "seemingly-exaggerated" is an understatement. Frankly, I wonder if Mr. Benioff has even read the bill that Gov. Pence signed today, or whether he's relying on the rhetoric of those who oppose it, who claim it will inevitably lead to discrimination. What the bill actually says is that the state government can't (with some exceptions) enact a law that curtails religious freedom.

In the 20 or so other states that have very similar laws model after the 1993 federal Religious Freedom Act, the courts have ruled in the cases that have been brought forward that it isn't an excuse by the private sector to discriminate. (One assumes that no Salesforce personnel are allowed to travel to those states, either...)

You can love your neighbor as you love yourself, and still not condone or participate in or approve of activities that contradict your faith, just as on a purely secular level you might like an individual but find some of their behavior distasteful.

Re: Salesforce won't travel to Indiana over religious freedom law

#24

Post by ctdonath » Thu, Mar 26, 2015, 8:52 PM UTC

wl wrote: post #9

keehun wrote: post #3

I support the seemingly-exaggerated response of Salesforce. In a risk of starting a religious flame war, I don't understand those of faith who discriminate against anyone else for any reason. Jesus called on His believers to love your neighbors as you love yourself. "There are no commandments greater than these" (from Mark 12)

I think you have to look at what motivated laws like this. In one famous example in Arizona, an anti-discrimination law penalized a wedding photographer who refused to work a same-sex wedding. It's not that people want the right to not serve gay people at Chick-fil-a.

A wedding photographer photographs weddings, eh? It is quite sensible for said photographer to turn down requests for photographing non-weddings, and holds to a certain widespread classic & religious definition of what a wedding is. Now many find a reason to press for legislation [re]stating that it's the proprietor who gets to decide what the definition s/he adheres to on common religious grounds, not what others say it is.

Re: Salesforce won't travel to Indiana over religious freedom law

#25

Post by aeturnum » Thu, Mar 26, 2015, 8:52 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #11

keehun wrote: post #3

I support the seemingly-exaggerated response of Salesforce. In a risk of starting a religious flame war, I don't understand those of faith who discriminate against anyone else for any reason. Jesus called on His believers to love your neighbors as you love yourself. "There are no commandments greater than these" (from Mark 12)

Maybe sales force will also stop selling to customers in Russia, China, in Africa too to ensure principles aren't broken... And people aren't discriminated against. Unfortunately I think he's grandstanding and this is simply symbolic. Which is fine, but he doesn't really mean it. It's a ploy.

I agree that this is more PR than it is principled stand. However, I disagree that the two situations are equivalent. In this case, IN is part of the country that SalesForce is headquartered in and they have employees who live and work in IN. Companies have some responsibility for their conduct in all the areas they do business, but it makes sense that they would be most focused on those areas where they do business and live and work.

Re: Salesforce won't travel to Indiana over religious freedom law

#26

Post by phrogdriver » Thu, Mar 26, 2015, 8:53 PM UTC

anon808 wrote: post #16

api wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also don't understand why things like homosexuality are orders of magnitude more important than all the other sins named in the Bible -- and often far more clearly and unambiguously. You don't see Christians protesting outside credit card companies because they engage in usury, or against companies that make their employees work on Sundays, or for policies to help the poor, or anything else like that. Ultimately wh…

Or how about the most obvious one, killing ie. wars. Conventional American Christianity and the military are very closely tied; how that disconnect is ignored is beyond me.

Strong jus ad bellum and jus in bello traditions in the military? For better or worse, people can justify killing in war.

Re: Salesforce won't travel to Indiana over religious freedom law

#27

Post by vacri » Thu, Mar 26, 2015, 8:53 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #11

keehun wrote: post #3

I support the seemingly-exaggerated response of Salesforce. In a risk of starting a religious flame war, I don't understand those of faith who discriminate against anyone else for any reason. Jesus called on His believers to love your neighbors as you love yourself. "There are no commandments greater than these" (from Mark 12)

Maybe sales force will also stop selling to customers in Russia, China, in Africa too to ensure principles aren't broken... And people aren't discriminated against. Unfortunately I think he's grandstanding and this is simply symbolic. Which is fine, but he doesn't really mean it. It's a ploy.

Salesforce isn't embargoing customers in Indiana, it's just no longer sending staff or running programs for customers in the state. They're not going to stop the locals buying their product.

in Africa too

Africa is not one homogenous mass of religious backwardness.

Re: Salesforce won't travel to Indiana over religious freedom law

#28

Post by mc32 » Thu, Mar 26, 2015, 8:53 PM UTC

rwissmann wrote: post #15

mc32 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe sales force will also stop selling to customers in Russia, China, in Africa too to ensure principles aren't broken... And people aren't discriminated against. Unfortunately I think he's grandstanding and this is simply symbolic. Which is fine, but he doesn't really mean it. It's a ploy.

If you want to enact change, you have to use whatever means is appropriate. In a democratic country that is supposed to uphold human rights, public acts such as these can have a strong positive impact. In an autocratic country such as china, the impact would be zero. Often, limited engagement can have a better impact.

Google pulled out of China out of principle. Not sure it made any impact. But that's what principles are about, you make a stand regardless.

Re: Salesforce won't travel to Indiana over religious freedom law

#29

Post by anon808 » Thu, Mar 26, 2015, 8:53 PM UTC

happyscrappy wrote: post #19

anon808 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or how about the most obvious one, killing ie. wars. Conventional American Christianity and the military are very closely tied; how that disconnect is ignored is beyond me.

You cannot be a pacifist without a protector, ask Tibet.

Unless you believe in an after-life or that God protects you.

Re: Salesforce won't travel to Indiana over religious freedom law

#30

Post by joshuaheard » Thu, Mar 26, 2015, 8:53 PM UTC

Thank you for calling it a religious freedom law instead of an anti-gay law as most media outlets, since the law never mentions homosexuality, but only reaffirms our Constitutional right to Freedom of Religion.