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How doctors choose to die (2012)

theguardian.com

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Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#71

Post by sago »

the_gipsy wrote: post #58
Ntrails wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why in gods name would I be frightened of oblivion? Dying is terrifying, because it comes with implications of suffering. No longer existing is simply enthralling. I will simply be gone. A just reward for making it through a lifetime imo.

I can't tell you why the thought of ceasing to exist would be frightening. It simply is to me, and I believe to most people. And most people, including me, ignore it and focus on the joys of life. There are of course different degrees of this displacement, some people may still acknowledge the idea but others might completely convince themselves that there is nothing to be scared of - or maybe there really is a way t…

I am not saying that you are fooling yourself, but

The mirror image is that we aren't fooling ourselves, we've just been able to rise above our heavy inculturation to such fear. An inculturation that you're still stuck in. That seems plausible too.

That's meant in good humour btw, my point is really that speculation that other people disagree because they are in denial, or ignorant, is pretty tempting, but usually not very helpful to discussion.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#72

Post by jpindar »

realityking wrote: post #54
wjkm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you're exactly right. I think one of the reasons a lot of people get anxious and scared about death is because they think that when they die they're going to be locked up in a dark room forever... but you won't, because non-existence is not an experience. As Alan Watts put it, death will be just like going to sleep and never waking up, just as being born was waking up never having gone to sleep.

Isn't that even scarier? All my thoughts, memories, ideas, experiences will be gone, just vanished. Unlike @themartorana, I'm somewhat religious (or maybe spiritual would be a better word, as I recognize how much religion is influenced by man) but like he hopes to be proven wrong I'm terrified of being mistaken.

You won't be able to experience your own thoughts and memories anymore, but we experience dead people's ideas all the time - if they put those ideas down in writing (or music, video etc.) And it's never in the history of mankind been easier to record your thoughts. Just do it.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#73

Post by dhimes »

ColinWright wrote: post #65
arfliw wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two with discussion are certainly relevant. The others were not. To me, they served only to give the false impression that this has been discussed a lot more than it actually has. > They are not intended to scold people for submitting things that have been submitted before So I guess that explains why you began with 'oh no, not again'

> The two with discussion are certainly relevant. > The others were not. To me, they served only to > give the false impression that this has been > discussed a lot more than it actually has. That's why I said how many comment there were - to give the data that there were lots of submissions, not all of which had generated discussions. > So I guess that explains why you > began with 'oh no, not again' Yeah, OK, point…

No, don't delete the comment. And don't go away!

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#74

Post by the_gipsy »

sago wrote: post #71
the_gipsy wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell you why the thought of ceasing to exist would be frightening. It simply is to me, and I believe to most people. And most people, including me, ignore it and focus on the joys of life. There are of course different degrees of this displacement, some people may still acknowledge the idea but others might completely convince themselves that there is nothing to be scared of - or maybe there really is a way t…

I am not saying that you are fooling yourself, but The mirror image is that we aren't fooling ourselves, we've just been able to rise above our heavy inculturation to such fear. An inculturation that you're still stuck in. That seems plausible too. That's meant in good humour btw, my point is really that speculation that other people disagree because they are in denial, or ignorant, is pretty tempting, but usually no…

I don't mean to say that "other people are ignorant". I myself ignore and displace this constantly... until at some moments I am reminded. I actually didn't intend to sound condescending, I should have made clear that I actually ignore death myself.

Regarding inculturation: I believe it is actually right the other way round! That a child when first encountering the thought of death and its implication, is naturally terrified, and that our society/culture provides means of coping with this fear.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#75

Post by arfliw »

ColinWright wrote: post #65
arfliw wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two with discussion are certainly relevant. The others were not. To me, they served only to give the false impression that this has been discussed a lot more than it actually has. > They are not intended to scold people for submitting things that have been submitted before So I guess that explains why you began with 'oh no, not again'

> The two with discussion are certainly relevant. > The others were not. To me, they served only to > give the false impression that this has been > discussed a lot more than it actually has. That's why I said how many comment there were - to give the data that there were lots of submissions, not all of which had generated discussions. > So I guess that explains why you > began with 'oh no, not again' Yeah, OK, point…

I didn't realize you quoted the number of replies, I thought HN did that automatically.

>I'll go away again

haha i never said to go away. play it like it feels. i'm biased since you were responding to my submission.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#76

Post by Mahn »

tim333 wrote: post #45
letstryagain wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being alive has a 100% mortality rate. Well we assume it does but so far only about 95%

Yeah, historically it has had a 100% mortality rate but there is a significant chance that things will change. eg. uploads http://www.inquisitr.com/1883084/mind-trip-humans-to-live-fo... and the like

This idea of "uploading" the mind shows up every now and then and it is interesting, but I think that ultimately we need a much deeper understanding in what consciousness is and how it works, because as it stands right now, it sounds like at most we would be able to replicate or copy a mind (provided the computing power gets us there), but not so much "transfer" or "upload".

This is because, as far as we know, if a computer were to perfectly recreate my brain, I wouldn't automatically exist in the computer, nor I would exists in both the computer and my body; but rather the computer would be an artificial self aware being with my data (memories, knowledge, etc) on it. But then again we need to understand consciousness better to give meaningful answers to these questions.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#77

Post by gr3yh47 »

FireBeyond wrote: post #8
jimt67 wrote: post #7

I thought this was thoughtful and well written but all I see is anecdote...there is no data presented that MDs choose different options than non-MD patients.

Adding to the anecdote, I'm a paramedic who has also opted for 'no heroic measures'. Even with CPR survival rates in this county being amongst the highest in the country.

Is breaking of the ribs really a requirement of CPR done correctly? My understanding was that it is possible for ribs to break but by no means a requirement of correct CPR as the article implies.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#78

Post by rckrd »

hippiefahrzeug wrote: post #50

This reminded me of an article I've read a long time ago which had a really strong impact on me. I've just found it by googling a couple of words that were still in my head after all these years. Here it is (probably not where I originally read it): http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21643646/ns/health-behavior/t/what...

Fantastic and relevant read.

This was surprisingly well written for an NBC or Men's Health article for those who are skeptical.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#79

Post by jpindar »

Mahn wrote: post #76
tim333 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, historically it has had a 100% mortality rate but there is a significant chance that things will change. eg. uploads http://www.inquisitr.com/1883084/mind-trip-humans-to-live-fo... and the like

This idea of "uploading" the mind shows up every now and then and it is interesting, but I think that ultimately we need a much deeper understanding in what consciousness is and how it works, because as it stands right now, it sounds like at most we would be able to replicate or copy a mind (provided the computing power gets us there), but not so much "transfer" or "upload". This is because, as far as we know, if a c…

One way to get around this might be to replace one section of the brain at a time with an electronic equivalent.

Re: How doctors choose to die (2012)

#80

Post by jodrellblank »

michaelochurch wrote: post #34
themartorana wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really hard to change perceptions about death when it requires considering one's own mortality. It is in this only that I understand the desperate quest for religion. The idea of going dark forever is terrifying to me, and considering I'm pretty much an atheist, I don't have much hope of anything else. When people ask me if I'm religious, I usually tell them I'm hopeful that I'm proven wrong. I know we all die.…

If this makes accepting death easier, the good news is the near-death experience. While I certainly don't intend to convince you that it's an afterlife experience (because no one knows quite what they are) it is typically positive and very powerful. Subjectively, it's an intense spiritual experience that seems to be unmatched by most things in life. As for whether it's entrance into an afterlife or the shutdown seque…

I don't think we'll have that answered within our natural lifespan. Both you and I are likely to die before we, as a species, know whether there's an afterlife

Pondering this, for how much grief it causes and how many people die every day (around 150,000), I wonder why "studying the moment of death with every instrument and method we can come up with, to work out if there's an afterlife" isn't a worldwide obsession for our species.

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