“So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary” • Hacker News Board

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#181

Post by mtbcoder » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 5:55 PM UTC

zby wrote: post #21

The real problem here is complexity - people don't understand what is the goal of what they do, and often there really is no goal because their bosses do not understand the system too. Maybe we should start treating law and bylaws as code and fight the complexity with decoupling, encapsulation, no side effects, etc?

That would presume we are all collectively interested in reducing complexity and work. Too often these complexities exist to benefit a small minority at the expense of the majority. For example: http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/27/turbotax-maker-funnels-mill...

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#182

Post by zby » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 6:10 PM UTC

mtbcoder wrote: post #181

zby wrote: post #21

The real problem here is complexity - people don't understand what is the goal of what they do, and often there really is no goal because their bosses do not understand the system too. Maybe we should start treating law and bylaws as code and fight the complexity with decoupling, encapsulation, no side effects, etc?

That would presume we are all collectively interested in reducing complexity and work. Too often these complexities exist to benefit a small minority at the expense of the majority. For example: http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/27/turbotax-maker-funnels-mill...

Agreed - this will not be that easy to fix, but still if we want to fix it than we need to think about reducing the complexity.

I have also a very tentative idea that this might actually lead for more democratic organizations - because removing the inefficiencies that come from the complexity will bring a lot of advantage for the companies that would do it - and this will require more creative thinking and good will from everyone in the organization. This is just like science would not thrive in a too autocratic institution - so the universities had a lot more internal democracy than for example production companies. And today production companies will have the same need for creativity and good will as the universities had in the past.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#183

Post by jes5199 » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 6:26 PM UTC

mdda wrote: post #62

ddeck wrote: post #55

The entire asset management industry is a candidate for the bullshit job title. Within the equity asset class for example, aggregate performance is worse than passive investments and there is ample evidence that substantially all managers are unable to actually provide the service they are selling. As an industry, it effectively taxes savings and distributes those taxes to the employees within the industry, sometimes…

Wow, I'm surprised to see a comment so critical of Venture Capitalists on HN. But I guess it's fair: The VC industry as a whole badly underperforms the S&P index on a risk-adjusted basis. Or aren't those the asset managers you were talking about?

VCs don't exist because it's the most profitable way to use that money. VCs exist because certain people think it's a fun game to play.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#184

Post by ptaipale » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 6:57 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #135

ptaipale wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Finland, there's not really a compulsory medical coverage by employers. The only compulsory part is planning and processes to prevent work-related health hazards and harms, and to protect and advance workplace safety, ability to work and health. (See law 2001/1383) So, some paperwork is mandatory, no actual health care. The reason many employers voluntarily provide an actual health insurance (or simply reimburse p…

"So, some paperwork is mandatory, no actual health care." The way the law is brought to action is that the private clinics have specific service tiers which they offer to employers, of which even the basic one covers consultation by a general practitioner. The easiest way for employers to fulfill the letter of the law is to buy the service. Which means that working adults seldom tend to the public services unless the…

I was founder in a SW startup, and those of us who had a Yes, this is obscure for this forum (perhaps that's why some people downvoted the previous comment) but just for the note, in Finland the employer is not really required to buy any services from private clinics. The legal requirement is for existence of a preventive plan, and a specification for what other services the plan covers. It's okay by law if the coverage effectively evaluates to nil, and employees just are off to the public system's queue.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#185

Post by diminoten » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 7:15 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #177

diminoten wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying that there is no place for malicious jobs in society?

I am. Before someone brings up the military - you can say that armed forces are built on malice, but the harm is at least directed towards other societies. Telemarketing is basically hurting members of your own.

Before we start, what do you define as a telemarketer?

And how do you define usefulness for humanity?

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#186

Post by zo1 » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 7:18 PM UTC

cssmoo wrote: post #175

zo1 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but if you think that is what a state-less society will turn to, then it says more about you than it does about other people. I, for example, don't not smash people's kneecaps because it's "against the law", just like most other individuals that inhabit this society. On the other hand, you seem to be under the misconception that there can be no "common ground" in a society without a state-mandated "common…

Oh give me a break. This isn't star trek and you're not Picard. Three simple words derail all idealism in your post: Corruption. Power. Poverty. You don't smash people's knees in because you've never had to so you can solicit a payment that you entered a contract and need to eat for the next couple of weeks and you approach the authorities and they've been paid off or don't give a shit. Humans don't look after each o…

"You might want to live in Brazil or South Africa for a bit."

I DO live in South Africa, thank you. I have for the last 8 years. So then, how does that affect your point? Are you implying I don't know what it's like living in a dangerous country because I don't live in one?

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#187

Post by SnacksOnAPlane » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 7:23 PM UTC

sktrdie wrote: post #139

aerocapture wrote: post #92

Instead of asking ourselves which particular jobs are "bullshit" and which are not, maybe we should ask why we need or want "jobs" at all. If every citizen received some minimum universal basic income, what might we do with our time instead of going to jobs we hate? I think the point might be that we've reached a state of technological progress where many of the functions of a modern civilization can be handled by a…

Wouldn't a UBI simply be inflationary? That is, rather than making 0 you make 1500 (say). But since everybody is making 1500, then it would be the same as making 0 again. So unless we have strict blocks on pricing things, UBI seems nonsensical.

It doesn't work that way. How could it possibly work that way? That would mean that the first item you buy each pay period would cost $1500 + its old price, and all other items were normally priced. Perhaps prices for all goods would rise, but you're still able to buy things, unlike the "making 0" scenario.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#188

Post by cssmoo » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 8:23 PM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #186

cssmoo wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh give me a break. This isn't star trek and you're not Picard. Three simple words derail all idealism in your post: Corruption. Power. Poverty. You don't smash people's knees in because you've never had to so you can solicit a payment that you entered a contract and need to eat for the next couple of weeks and you approach the authorities and they've been paid off or don't give a shit. Humans don't look after each o…

" You might want to live in Brazil or South Africa for a bit. " I DO live in South Africa, thank you. I have for the last 8 years. So then, how does that affect your point? Are you implying I don't know what it's like living in a dangerous country because I don't live in one?

Which bit?

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#189

Post by stephenbez » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 8:24 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #144

diminoten wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You honestly can't be so arrogant so as to assume that if you can't see the benefit of an activity, that it must not have any benefit, right? Lobbyists are critical to the functioning of the American system of government. They're even mentioned in the Constitution. Private equity firms make retirement possible. PR researchers enable companies to not have to deal exclusively with the populist swaying of public opinion…

>>I could go on Yes, please do. I want to hear what kind of bizarre reality you live in where telemarketing is useful.

It's been useful for me.

I recently received a call to remember to sign up for a charity race before the early signup deadline passed.

It was good for me because I had done it for the past 5 years, but hadn't remembered to sign up yet. The reminder saved me money for early signup.

It was good for the caller because they then had another person committed to doing the event.

----

The college I went to was funded in part by donations from alumni. Without donations received by telemarketers calling, there would be less resources available for my education.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#190

Post by stephenbez » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 8:38 PM UTC

learnstats2 wrote: post #85

qq66 wrote: post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

> And what does a world with less insurance look like? Insurance lets people trade a small amount of money for protection against a loss of a life-ruining amount of money. In terms of personal insurance, a world with less insurance looks like a place where people don't suffer just for the small risk of such a loss. Catastrophic events such as fire and health could be dealt with more sympathetically by society rather…

The government has tried that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Flood_Insurance_Progra...

By charging premiums below market risk valuation, the program has encouraged building in vulnerable areas. This has led to destruction of resources and government transfers to the rich people in a position to own coastal property.