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“So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

theguardian.com

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Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#51

Post by yummyfajitas »

msh wrote: post #8
qq66 wrote: post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

Much of Europe works perfectly well with out health insurance.

Clearly the state budget planners have no need to compute the expected future health care expenses of the state.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#53

Post by crdoconnor »

cssmoo wrote: post #48
crdoconnor wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that was good for you . I don't think anybody would argue that these jobs aren't good for somebody. The real question is whether they are contributing to society at large. I know somebody who hired a lobbyist too. Worked out great.

Yes. It was good for me and it was good for the other person too. Why? Because it enforces society's moral standards upon everyone. If there is no common ground it descends into anarchy because if someone owes me £1500 I'm going to pay £200 to smash his kneecaps if there wasn't a court and bailiff option...

>I'm going to pay £200 to smash his kneecaps

The often extreme violence of creditors against debtors, and the way that has debt has been used to control (and often enslave) others is another theme of Graeber's books.

I imagine that you are not a fan.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#54

Post by WalterBright »

crdoconnor wrote: post #38
WalterBright wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take Private Equity CEOs. The bottom line of what they do is try to reallocate capital away from less productive investments and towards more productive investments.

Can you try to explain how they did that in the case of Guitar Center? http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/08/guitar-center-private... The theory and reality of private equity do seem to be worlds apart. Much like the theory and practice of high speed trading. In theory they reallocate capital more productively. In practice they seem to make money by squeezing workers, taxpayers, investors and even their own customer…

I find that article to be hopelessly confusing, and can't make heads or tails of it. So I have no opinion on GC.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#55

Post by ddeck »

The entire asset management industry is a candidate for the bullshit job title. Within the equity asset class for example, aggregate performance is worse than passive investments and there is ample evidence that substantially all managers are unable to actually provide the service they are selling.

As an industry, it effectively taxes savings and distributes those taxes to the employees within the industry, sometimes as eye watering salaries and bonuses.

One may argue that the consumer is free to choose not to consume the service, but the reality is that most countries have mandated retirement savings mechanisms that efficiently funnel employee pensions and savings into the industry.

[1] http://www.umass.edu/preferen/You%20Must%20Read%20This/Picki...

[2] http://web.stanford.edu/~wfsharpe/art/active/active.htm

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#56

Post by nawitus »

littletimmy wrote: post #36
WalterBright wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take Private Equity CEOs. The bottom line of what they do is try to reallocate capital away from less productive investments and towards more productive investments.

In general, you can make that sort of broad argument about anything. For example, you could say slavers were trying to reallocate labor from where it was less productive (African subsistence farming) to where it was more productive (building the American economy). The point being made here is whether Private Equity CEOs are contributing anything substantial apart from concentrating capital. The answer to that has to…

>For example, you could say slavers were trying to reallocate labor from where it was less productive (African subsistence farming) to where it was more productive (building the American economy).

I think that's a different discourse. Slave labour was not a "bullshit job", it was productive. However, it was unethical. You can have productive jobs which are unethical, but that's a separate discussion from bullshit jobs.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#57

Post by crdoconnor »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #50
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why we have off-shoring, and stagnant or dropping real income for that segment of the population that still has a job. Are these good things? Is it a good thing when a private equity investor starts stomping around your startup demanding you treat your hires like exploitable assets and not like friends or colleagues you respect?

Off-shoring is a wonderful example of private equity types reducing global inequality, helping the poor, and helping consumers. It's true that the wealthy Americans who formerly collected rents due to an accident of their birth might not be happy about it, but so what? Real income is rising, BTW. It's only real wages (i.e. income excluding benefits) in the US which have not due to a shift of comp from wages to non-wa…

>Off-shoring is a wonderful example of private equity types reducing global inequality

Pitting third world workers against first world workers isn't good for either of them in the long run.

The same threat that hangs over US workers (we will offshore your job if you unionize and demand higher wages) actually hangs over 3rd world workers too (we will reshore your job if you unionize and demand higher wage).

It's a win/win situation for private equity though.

> It's true that the wealthy Americans who formerly collected rents

Wages are rents now are they? That's doubleplus good doublethink.

>Real income is rising

Median incomes are in decline.

>shift of comp from wages to non-wage benefits

...if you do some creative accounting on healthcare costs. Theoretically you might be getting $150,000 worth of benefits if your company insurance pays for your appendectomy. You and I both know that those absurd prices only really apply to the uninsured.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#58

Post by cssmoo »

crdoconnor wrote: post #53
cssmoo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It was good for me and it was good for the other person too. Why? Because it enforces society's moral standards upon everyone. If there is no common ground it descends into anarchy because if someone owes me £1500 I'm going to pay £200 to smash his kneecaps if there wasn't a court and bailiff option...

>I'm going to pay £200 to smash his kneecaps The often extreme violence of creditors against debtors, and the way that has debt has been used to control (and often enslave) others is another theme of Graeber's books. I imagine that you are not a fan.

Bailiffs and debt collectors are two different concepts.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#59

Post by crdoconnor »

WalterBright wrote: post #54
crdoconnor wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you try to explain how they did that in the case of Guitar Center? http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/08/guitar-center-private... The theory and reality of private equity do seem to be worlds apart. Much like the theory and practice of high speed trading. In theory they reallocate capital more productively. In practice they seem to make money by squeezing workers, taxpayers, investors and even their own customer…

I find that article to be hopelessly confusing, and can't make heads or tails of it. So I have no opinion on GC.

Maybe you shouldn't have opinions on private equity if you find it hopelessly confusing.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#60

Post by blfr »

crdoconnor wrote: post #44
blfr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single payer still acts as an insurer and needs actuaries (even if they're not called that) to figure out which procedures make sense with their limited resources.

Not really. There is no need to price the cost of insuring a 30 year old white male living in Croydon. If he is ill, he gets treatment. If he is not ill, he doesn't. The only thing close to actuarial science that the NHS actually needs is QALYS calculations. This is only really used for calculating how worthwhile very expensive treatments that target the very old or very disabled. The number of people needed to do th…

Then they need to estimate how many procedures of each kind to contract, or how large facilities to maintain, in Croydon. Which in part depends on the number of 30 year old white males living there.

If they get it wrong, he doesn't magically get treatment anyway. He either has to wait, or travel elsewhere (and someone still has to figure out where and when). Otherwise, they waste money on unused capacity.

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