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DemocracyOS

democracyos.org

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Re: DemocracyOS

#151

This is amazing. I have dreamt of a system like this and armchair-proposed it to friends countless times. I am always faced with derision in such conversations[1] - but I believe that a secure implementation of such an idea could be the future of democracy. Or rather, its past. Ancient Greek democracy wasn't perfect (slavery; not everyone was citizen) but it was much better than our current system of professional pol…

I think delegation or proxying is an important feature in a direct democracy platform that I see missing here. It allows people without the technical expertise to make an informed decision by allowing a trusted third party to make the decision for them.

I believe this would give rise to something like we have today where policiticans collect proxies (votes), however it would be a more ephemeral relationship since people could take their voting rights back if unsatisified or if they felt strongly on an issue. I think this would create a more balanced dynamic then we currently have.

Re: DemocracyOS

#152
post #9

Political systems should protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. I worry that Democracy OS's idea fails to address this issue. If the politicians always vote with the majority, what if the majority wants to violate the rights of the minority?

The man who is possessed of wealth, who lolls on his sofa or rolls in his carriage, cannot judge the wants or feelings of the day-laborer. The government we mean to erect is intended to last for ages. The landed interest, at present, is prevalent; but in process of time, when we approximate to the states and kingdoms of Europe, — when the number of landholders shall be comparatively small, through the various means of trade and manufactures, will not the landed interest be overbalanced in future elections, and unless wisely provided against, what will become of your government? In England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The senate, therefore, ought to be this body; and to answer these purposes, they ought to have permanency and stability.

-James Madison 1787

http://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/James_Madison

Re: DemocracyOS

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stats? 72% of the Homes of Buenos Aires have Internet access. Of those, 88% with broadband access. source: INDEC. National stats often used by Google too in Argentina (they where leaked to me, but it's public you can look for them). don't hide in Spanish.

> don't hide in Spanish. lol; yes, I'm hiding when I'm saying (a) you are using threading wrong (b) my personal experience is statically insignificant (c) I'm trying to have a debate while you have not presented a single argument. > Stats? 72% of the Homes of Buenos Aires have Internet access. Of those, 88% with broadband access. > Oh, I forgot: 93% of Is that Buenos Aires City, or Buenos Aires City and Surrounds, or…

I replied from a Mobile App. Stats are for Buenos Aires city, that's where we run. Im proving that you never been into a slum.

You've said "personal experience is statically insignificant"

I agree, that's why I replied 93% of under 30 year olds in Buenos Aires access social media at least once a week.

I mentioned my personal experience because it was obvious how many of these kids access the internet. You see that 93% stat everywhere if you actually cared and waled the streets of the city.

These attacks where the most common ones we had during the campaign. So let me give you an update: the largest organisation that implemented DemocracyOS is a political party from Kenya. Over there 25% of the GDP is already transacted through mobile devices.

I traveled a lot around the world, specially Latin America. And I did notice that civic adoption of technology is way stronger in developing nations that are struggling than in developed ones. Venezuela is an impressive case if you ever get to see what's going on ever there.

So no, I don't bullshit. I've been working on this for many years now.

Re: DemocracyOS

#154
post #95

This is very inspiring stuff and very exciting that YC is backing it! A key thing that Pia said in her TED talk: technology is only a tool here, cultural change and reinvention is necessary. I haven't had a chance to play with DemocracyOS yet, but the focus does somewhat seem to be on "direct democracy" (as opposed to "representative"), and as others have pointed out, that's fraught with problems. But I hope and beli…

We met Tom Atlee lately, he is fantastic. His insights on how to move forward, the importance of diversity in the process, where super sharp. I would add to the list, When People Speak by Fishkin and check Marina Gorbis' book on The Nature of the Future, specially the chapter on the future of government. Her proposal of a new large, agora of randomly chosen citizens is super interesting and challenging.

Glad to hear you met Tom! He's our secret national treasure. It's awesome to hear that you are already plugged in to this area of thinking. Thanks for the Gorbis reference, sounds similar to Ethan Leib's proposal for a fourth branch of federal gov't.

Re: DemocracyOS

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't hide in Spanish. lol; yes, I'm hiding when I'm saying (a) you are using threading wrong (b) my personal experience is statically insignificant (c) I'm trying to have a debate while you have not presented a single argument. > Stats? 72% of the Homes of Buenos Aires have Internet access. Of those, 88% with broadband access. > Oh, I forgot: 93% of Is that Buenos Aires City, or Buenos Aires City and Surrounds, or…

I replied from a Mobile App. Stats are for Buenos Aires city, that's where we run. Im proving that you never been into a slum. You've said "personal experience is statically insignificant" I agree, that's why I replied 93% of under 30 year olds in Buenos Aires access social media at least once a week. I mentioned my personal experience because it was obvious how many of these kids access the internet. You see that 93…

> Im proving that you never been into a slum.

You proof is irrelevant, and incorrect. I lived the past two years in California. Were does stats also correct two years ago? Or your "never" actually means "recently"?

> These attacks where the most common ones we had during the campaign.

Attacks? Really? I see that Partido de la Red is following Frente para la Victoria speech where you are either 100% with them, or you are the enemy. Am I getting paid be the Clarin Group now as well? I made questions.

> if you actually cared and waled the streets of the city

Ugh, that is an attach, and I don't really like your tone. You are implying that you only care if you are physically there, which is incorrect on every possible level.

You are systematically ignoring the questions I have asked, posting cherry-picked facts that are at most mildly related to the conversation I was trying to have with you.

My original question was: "How do you justify that most of the votes came from wealthy neighborhoods of the city?"

Your answer was repeating that people, even poor people, use internet. Well, cool, that's awesome. Now what do you think about my question for a change?

Re: DemocracyOS

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (I really hate the phrase "tyranny of the majority", by the way, because it simply isn't a good way to describe democratic voting, where the majority is emergent and not determined ex ante.) Nothing about the phrase actually requires the tyranny be remotely permanent, and nothing about the concept of tyranny requires it either. Indeed, it's actually more poignant that the tyranny is both ephemeral and, more importa…

> Indeed, it's actually more poignant that the tyranny is both ephemeral and, more importantly, inevitable. This is the real issue. It's easy to comprehend the issue by looking at semi-permanent states [1], like Marxist class divisions or political polarization, but those are consequences. I disagree; if the oppression is ephemeral, then it's nowhere as bad as when it is (semi)permanent. (Maybe an example would help…

> I disagree; if the oppression is ephemeral, then it's nowhere as bad as when it is (semi)permanent. (Maybe an example would help - all the oppressions that come to my mind from history, that were formalized in law, are attempts to permanently subjugate or even eradicate the minority.)

Except that these oppressive acts are law-making: the oppressive act under discussion is the vote. The vote enshrines the law into the most permanent state we have, really. The fact that the emergent majority that enshrines this law is no longer extant is irrelevant: their actions are permanent.

> if you being in the minority is ephemeral, then you will remember it and vote differently.

How is this a good thing? This is the worst reason to change your vote and invalidates the entire point of voting to begin with. "Oh no, I've been oppressed. Clearly I must change myself and conform to the popular opinion next time around." How is this anything but tyranny by majority?

> And if you look at direct democracy in Switzerland, ... because of that, the party or class tribalism you describe from American politics is greatly reduced.

I'm not familiar with the details of Swiss politics, but at a glance at the Wikipedia page, the first thing it says is that it's "half-direct". I cannot make any claims about the consequences of the Swiss system, but my guess is that the effects you describe have nothing to do with direct democracy. They are instead the effect of the lower population (4% of the US; 0.6% of India) and higher homogeneity.

In America, the tribalism has historically been along fairly clear lines visible outside of the polling booth: income, education, race, and so on. This has blurred, but not by much. You can still take a bunch of demographics, pick an issue, and reliably predict the position a given citizen will take.

Your claim is essentially that this isn't the case in Switzerland. That someone with a higher degree of education does not have a higher probability of voting on the progressive side of a given issue, for instance, but rather that demographics fail to predict voting patterns. I cannot dispute this claim because I don't have Swiss voting records at my disposal. But I would suspect that the demographical divisions in Switzerland are much less visible than those in America.

Personally, my conclusion is that, for the United States to more likely attain a "consensual result", it needs a higher degree of homogeneity, not direct democracy.

> In direct democracy, the majority is always emergent; it depends on your actual views, not on which party you decide to vote for.

First, you never used the term "direct democracy" in your initial comment. Second, I said nothing about political parties. It's probably very difficult to understand my point when you aren't really reading what I wrote in good faith.

As far as I can tell, our actual difference of opinion can be demonstrated with this thought experiment. Let's say that you have a population governed by democratic procedure in which a law is proposed 4 times throughout a year. It is the same law, the same text, and no relevant or notable events occur over this period to change opinions. Let's further assume 100% turnout. We'll posit that 70% vote yes and 30% vote no.

My position is that, for any given person in this population, their vote will not change throughout this year: it will remain 70%, 70%, 70%. Your position, if I interpret you correctly, is that the voting pattern will change to 80% yes, 90% yes, and then 100% yes, because the minority will vote differently.

The thought experiment is not intended to be realistic; it's merely intended to make our difference in basic assumptions clear.

Re: DemocracyOS

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't hide in Spanish. lol; yes, I'm hiding when I'm saying (a) you are using threading wrong (b) my personal experience is statically insignificant (c) I'm trying to have a debate while you have not presented a single argument. > Stats? 72% of the Homes of Buenos Aires have Internet access. Of those, 88% with broadband access. > Oh, I forgot: 93% of Is that Buenos Aires City, or Buenos Aires City and Surrounds, or…

I replied from a Mobile App. Stats are for Buenos Aires city, that's where we run. Im proving that you never been into a slum. You've said "personal experience is statically insignificant" I agree, that's why I replied 93% of under 30 year olds in Buenos Aires access social media at least once a week. I mentioned my personal experience because it was obvious how many of these kids access the internet. You see that 93…

Thanks for acknowledging my point. Busy day today! Bye

Re: DemocracyOS

#158
post #32
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a metaphor, and its confusing if not mildly infuriating.

A metaphor is a type of analogy, just so you know. Also, could you elaborate on what is so infuriating?

I was expecting a democratically run Linux distro or some kind of framework for democratically pulling open source software.

Its more confusing than infuriating. Mainly because the term os makes sense only to people like me, but doesn't match what up with what people like me know it as.

The OS part of the name doesn't help anything. I'm guessing its only there so you could have the name in the URL.

Re: DemocracyOS

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indeed, it's actually more poignant that the tyranny is both ephemeral and, more importantly, inevitable. This is the real issue. It's easy to comprehend the issue by looking at semi-permanent states [1], like Marxist class divisions or political polarization, but those are consequences. I disagree; if the oppression is ephemeral, then it's nowhere as bad as when it is (semi)permanent. (Maybe an example would help…

> I disagree; if the oppression is ephemeral, then it's nowhere as bad as when it is (semi)permanent. (Maybe an example would help - all the oppressions that come to my mind from history, that were formalized in law, are attempts to permanently subjugate or even eradicate the minority.) Except that these oppressive acts are law-making: the oppressive act under discussion is the vote . The vote enshrines the law into…

> Except that these oppressive acts are law-making: the oppressive act under discussion is the vote.

I don't understand how is voting oppressive. Bad laws can be changed; what cannot be changed are things like loss of human lives, that's irreversible. You are arguing very abstractly; perhaps more specific example of oppression (ideally from the real world) would help? I would like to see a historic example of law promoted by majority (and if possible, opposed by elites) that had extremely negative consequences for some minority.

> How is this anything but tyranny by majority?

No, you're misunderstanding. It's that majority will change their vote to conform the minority view (if the idea is good, of course), not other way around. Just look at my example - unemployment. Even though unemployed people are in ephemeral minority, unemployment is a big topic for everybody, the majority. Because many people have been unemployed in the past or know someone, who was. So if someone is proposing to help the minority of unemployed, majority will probably vote for it. Neither they are probably going to support harming unemployed people.

> the first thing it says is that it's "half-direct"

The half-direct is more precise term, direct democracy is not quite practical, but it has important advantages to representative democracy. Half-direct democracy is a good compromise between those features.

> Personally, my conclusion is that, for the United States to more likely attain a "consensual result", it needs a higher degree of homogeneity, not direct democracy.

Well, the causality is the other way around - Swiss are homogenous because they have decades of experience in building consensus. But think whatever you want.

> It's probably very difficult to understand my point when you aren't really reading what I wrote in good faith.

The point is, in a real democracy, you don't have to pick from (as little as) two packages of issues that some clever marketers designed. That really means that there is no clear minority and majority - in some issues you may be minority and in some majority. In other words, being in minority is an artifact of the representative political system (and the majority voting or two party system makes it worse).

> As far as I can tell, our actual difference of opinion can be demonstrated with this thought experiment.

You don't have to do thought experiments. There have been quite a lot of cases where Swiss people changed the majority view from conservative to more progressive one. It's a little slower process (may take several years), but it happens. There have been also some regresses (I think some anti-mosque laws and such), but these happen at the same glacial pace, and are no worse than anywhere else.

You know, Switzerland and U.S. (not on federal level, and in all states, unfortunately) both have half-direct democracy, and they have some highest living standards in the world. Is that just a coincidence? (I certainly don't see much oppression going on there, and that's why this "tyranny of the majority" argument always seemed to me as some ivory tower bullshit.)

Re: DemocracyOS

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I disagree; if the oppression is ephemeral, then it's nowhere as bad as when it is (semi)permanent. (Maybe an example would help - all the oppressions that come to my mind from history, that were formalized in law, are attempts to permanently subjugate or even eradicate the minority.) Except that these oppressive acts are law-making: the oppressive act under discussion is the vote . The vote enshrines the law into…

> Except that these oppressive acts are law-making: the oppressive act under discussion is the vote. I don't understand how is voting oppressive. Bad laws can be changed; what cannot be changed are things like loss of human lives, that's irreversible. You are arguing very abstractly; perhaps more specific example of oppression (ideally from the real world) would help? I would like to see a historic example of law pro…

Okay. I'm throwing up my hands.

I'm interested in having this discussion, but you keep changing your position completely with every post. Now I'm at the point where I'm imagining we actually agree with each other, but neither of us seem capable of actually communicating anything useful.

Assuming that we are in agreement, there isn't really any point to our discussion. If we aren't, then we can't get anywhere because I can't even comprehend your position.

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