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DemocracyOS

democracyos.org

131–140 of 160 posts

Re: DemocracyOS

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only people that believe that internet access is only for the rich, is rich people. > The Net Party ran for elections in 2013 and got 1.2% of the votes in Buenos Aires How do you justify that most of the votes came from wealthy neighborhoods of the city? https://twitter.com/seppo0010/status/578031940651118593

we had votes in every single neighborhood of the city. Our correlation was better with progressive parties (ARI) than conservative (PRO) ones even. Actually in Congress, The Workers Party (PO) brought more users to DemocracyOS than ANY other party.

I tried to do the math myself about the correlation, but it seems like my statistics teachers would be disappointed[1]. What R^2 did you get compared to ARI and what with PRO?

At first sight, it does not seem significant.

My claim was about poor and rich people, and you used progressive and conservatives parties as a proxy indicator, which is not great. In USA, for example, California and New York are two of the richest states and they are progressive, while the poorest tend to be conservative.

In the "comunas" 4, 8 and 9 (Lugano, Mataderos, Soldati, Pompeya, Barracas) the party "UNION PRO" did better than "UNEN" (a.k.a.: "ARI"), and in the 12, 13, 14 (Urquiza, Belgrano, Palermo) their percentages were really close.

If anything, your statement is completely unrelated to my question.

> Actually in Congress, The Workers Party (PO) brought more users to DemocracyOS than ANY other party.

Correlation does not imply causality. One possible explanation is that both DemocracyOS and PO have a stronger impact on young people.

[1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TqWBMk18bbr1TQV-Wq0a...

Re: DemocracyOS

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we had votes in every single neighborhood of the city. Our correlation was better with progressive parties (ARI) than conservative (PRO) ones even. Actually in Congress, The Workers Party (PO) brought more users to DemocracyOS than ANY other party.

I tried to do the math myself about the correlation, but it seems like my statistics teachers would be disappointed[1]. What R^2 did you get compared to ARI and what with PRO? At first sight, it does not seem significant. My claim was about poor and rich people, and you used progressive and conservatives parties as a proxy indicator, which is not great. In USA, for example, California and New York are two of the rich…

Yes. We do better in the younger generation. We are building for the future and thinking the long term.

and again: only rich people believe internet is for the rich. In every slum you'll find every single kid with a huge smartphone.

As you came to realize by the end of your rant: the gap is more generational than Socio-economical. That's why this makes sense in the long term.

Re: DemocracyOS

#133
post #122
post #9

Political systems should protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. I worry that Democracy OS's idea fails to address this issue. If the politicians always vote with the majority, what if the majority wants to violate the rights of the minority?

A Saudi (go figure) once wisely told me: "The greatest thing about American democracy isn't the vote - many democracies have that. The greatest thing about American democracy is the Bill of Rights, which states what the majority is not allowed to do the minority".

A great challenge we face is precisely this. Today DemocracyOS is strong at a local city-level. We don't believe we are ready for Federal level yet as we must understand how checks and balances work at this scale.

Re: DemocracyOS

#134

As with others, I am really struggling to see why this has "OS" in the name. It's not an operating system. I'm guessing it stands for "open source", which isn't really an acronym people use in favour of OSS/FOSS (probably because OS already has a very well established meaning). Can someone share some insight on the naming decision?

It's meant to be open for many intepretations: - Open Source because, well, we are open source (github.com/democracyos/app) - Operating System because, well, we aim to build a layer on top of the current political system. - Open Society becasue, well, we aim for societies to become more participatory and democratic. Pick your favorite flavor.. the goal is to nail how democracy should work in the 21st century.

Just had this epiphany: DemocracyOS's name is intrinsically democratic.

Re: DemocracyOS

#135
post #9

Political systems should protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. I worry that Democracy OS's idea fails to address this issue. If the politicians always vote with the majority, what if the majority wants to violate the rights of the minority?

Democracy does exactly that - it gives everyone the same vote, regardless what minority they come from. Therefore, it protects any minority for maximum possible extent. You don't need any formal rules on top of that; in other words, the solution to "tyranny of the majority" should not be "tyranny of the minority". (I really hate the phrase "tyranny of the majority", by the way, because it simply isn't a good way to d…

> (I really hate the phrase "tyranny of the majority", by the way, because it simply isn't a good way to describe democratic voting, where the majority is emergent and not determined ex ante.)

Nothing about the phrase actually requires the tyranny be remotely permanent, and nothing about the concept of tyranny requires it either. Indeed, it's actually more poignant that the tyranny is both ephemeral and, more importantly, inevitable. This is the real issue. It's easy to comprehend the issue by looking at semi-permanent states [1], like Marxist class divisions or political polarization, but those are consequences.

When you place something to a vote and fail to achieve consensus, you have a majority whose will is being enacted upon a minority. This is commonly celebrated by moronic catchphrases such as, "the right side of history," but you still have a winner and a loser. And when the ephemeral majority seems to crystallize from the aether into an unmistakable demographic of some kind, you really have to wonder about this "emergent majority" concept.

The fundamental American problem is that it is incapable of trusting its government. (I can't speak to other governments; I don't live under those.) This lack of trust is well-founded, but that doesn't make it any less crippling. I said below that the appropriate counter to the tyrannical majority is a strong executive. The executive is capable of saying, "No," to a popular opinion in a way that the legislature cannot. (Indeed, this is a role Americans have shoved onto the judiciary, which means we can't actually say no until someone files a lawsuit.) The interplay between the legislature and the executive (the vote, the veto, the super-majority overrule, the refusal to enforce, the impeachment) is exactly the solution being proposed.

None of it works without an executive willing to exercise its options. See Obama's refusal to enforce immigration laws, for instance. (For the sake of this "academic debate", let's presume that he could enforce them to the letter if he wanted to.) That is a check against tyranny of the majority. So naturally, well... see for yourself [2]. This isn't meant as an anti-Republican statement; it's just the most recent example I could bring to mind off the top of my head.

The trust part comes back when you ask, "Why doesn't a minority group tyrannized by a majority group just leave?" You know, secede. This comes back to the emergent majority you spoke of: if you trust the majority to, you know, not be dicks about it [3]. To not always be the majority, then secession isn't necessary. You can expect that the issues will change and you'll be in the majority. Of course, what's happened with the polarized political class in America is that you stick around because you figure you can win next time.

This is a problem. It is the exact opposite of what you need to make sure that a majority is an emergent majority. Instead of melting back into an indeterminate goo and forming new majority/minority groups in each vote, you have battle lines being drawn for a budding civil war. And that's as far as I've figured out.

[1] "State" as in "state of being", not as in "nation-state". My thesaurus powers have failed me.

[2] http://judiciary.house.gov/index.cfm/2015/3/at-the-flick-of-...

[3] Book recommendation: http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Strangers-Anxieties-Citizenshi...

Re: DemocracyOS

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried to do the math myself about the correlation, but it seems like my statistics teachers would be disappointed[1]. What R^2 did you get compared to ARI and what with PRO? At first sight, it does not seem significant. My claim was about poor and rich people, and you used progressive and conservatives parties as a proxy indicator, which is not great. In USA, for example, California and New York are two of the rich…

Yes. We do better in the younger generation. We are building for the future and thinking the long term. and again: only rich people believe internet is for the rich. In every slum you'll find every single kid with a huge smartphone. As you came to realize by the end of your rant: the gap is more generational than Socio-economical. That's why this makes sense in the long term.

Rant? Do you really consider I was ranting at any point?

I think I've exhibit thoughts, tried to look for mathematical proof, quoted people who are smarter than me, wonder about known problems when making decisions, and you consider that a rant?

You have no addressed a single concern I have shared. You don't have to, but your replies are infuriating because you are missing the point every time.

You are just repeating marketing phrases like "every single kid with a huge smartphone". Well, what does that prove? Does it prove that internet has as much penetration in lower income population than it does in high income one? I think not. And if you keep repeating that you are just insulting the young people who live in a slum and do not have smartphone, because you are blaming them for not having one.

> the gap is more generational than Socio-economical

That gap is not related to democracyOS but to technology. You will have a stronger impact on a young generation not because "you are thinking in long term" but because they'll understand it faster.

This comment was mostly a rant. And from now on I'll refuse to answer any comment you write until you want to provide something useful to talk about, or even back your statements.

Re: DemocracyOS

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried to do the math myself about the correlation, but it seems like my statistics teachers would be disappointed[1]. What R^2 did you get compared to ARI and what with PRO? At first sight, it does not seem significant. My claim was about poor and rich people, and you used progressive and conservatives parties as a proxy indicator, which is not great. In USA, for example, California and New York are two of the rich…

Yes. We do better in the younger generation. We are building for the future and thinking the long term. and again: only rich people believe internet is for the rich. In every slum you'll find every single kid with a huge smartphone. As you came to realize by the end of your rant: the gap is more generational than Socio-economical. That's why this makes sense in the long term.

It just proves that you have never been in a slum from Buenos Aires. And yes, denying a rant with a rant speaks for itself. :)

Re: DemocracyOS

#138

This is amazing. I have dreamt of a system like this and armchair-proposed it to friends countless times. I am always faced with derision in such conversations[1] - but I believe that a secure implementation of such an idea could be the future of democracy. Or rather, its past. Ancient Greek democracy wasn't perfect (slavery; not everyone was citizen) but it was much better than our current system of professional pol…

others made such software before, also member of the pirate party germany. It's called liquid democracy and ads delegation possibilities to trusted fellows. This delegation option is chainable and thus address certain problems already pointed out in this thread: lack of time, knowledge to make an informed decision,..

DemocracyOS falls short in this obvious matters and could ad this feature, since delegation is a core feature

It is fieldtested in small northern german communities by their city councils I think.

http://youtu.be/fg0_Vhldz-8

http://liquidfeedback.org

Re: DemocracyOS

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. We do better in the younger generation. We are building for the future and thinking the long term. and again: only rich people believe internet is for the rich. In every slum you'll find every single kid with a huge smartphone. As you came to realize by the end of your rant: the gap is more generational than Socio-economical. That's why this makes sense in the long term.

It just proves that you have never been in a slum from Buenos Aires. And yes, denying a rant with a rant speaks for itself. :)

Te respondiste a vos solo, no a mí.

Sí he estado, no desde que se popularizaron los smartphones, y mientras hablas de experiencias personales no deja de ser estadísticamente insignificante.

Y no, me calenté con tu comentario, antes estaba argumentando, a diferencia de vos que no tuviste un solo arugmento.

Re: DemocracyOS

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. We do better in the younger generation. We are building for the future and thinking the long term. and again: only rich people believe internet is for the rich. In every slum you'll find every single kid with a huge smartphone. As you came to realize by the end of your rant: the gap is more generational than Socio-economical. That's why this makes sense in the long term.

It just proves that you have never been in a slum from Buenos Aires. And yes, denying a rant with a rant speaks for itself. :)

Stats? 72% of the Homes of Buenos Aires have Internet access. Of those, 88% with broadband access.

source: INDEC. National stats often used by Google too in Argentina (they where leaked to me, but it's public you can look for them).

don't hide in Spanish.

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