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“So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

theguardian.com

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Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#121

Post by fwn »

crdoconnor wrote: post #10
qq66 wrote: post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

>Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Ok, so that's one that you cherry picked. How about these? * Private equity CEOs * Lobbyists * PR researchers * Telemarketers * Bailiffs Tell us how the world would be worse off without them. You could argue that some of these are doing actual harm to society, actually.

I am unsure how someone might think lobbyists don't generate value. With their lobbying they convert causes which can't be easily utilised in the democratic process to be more addressable (which means: can be targeted by polarising groups in either gov or opposition)

They do extend the capacity of democracies dramatically.

eg: Nobody linked mahogany with dying rainforests before Greenpeace.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#122

Post by [deleted] »

notahacker wrote: post #101
crdoconnor wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>he's even specifically written about how technology has undermined "meaningful" employment in agriculture and manufacturing Wasn't how I read it. He mentioned that technology "freed up" people from working in the field, though, meaning they could then be put to work in bullshit jobs. >his arguments against "bullshit jobs" conflate jobs which don't serve society with jobs whose employees feel they're worthless becaus…

One of the key differences between poet-musicians and lawyers is that if the former group do something that benefits you, you quite literally hear it. Corporate lawyers talking the board out of doing something damaging to the public because of potential legal ramifications do so behind closed doors. And lawyers for public companies are often quietly propping up the value of an awful lot of ordinary people's savings e…

[deleted]

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#123

Post by yummyfajitas »

crdoconnor wrote: post #105
yummyfajitas wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rent captured by us workers is the price delta between a competitive market and one with barriers to trade. Only part of their wage is rent - if deepika earns 10k rs/month and Danielle earns 100k rs, the rent is 90k. As for income (not wages, which is a subse of income), data is easily googleable. http://m.research.stlouisfed.org/fred/series.php?sid=COMPRNF...

>The rent captured by us workers is the price delta between a competitive market and one with barriers to trade. Oh really. What is the price delta between a logically-impossible perfectly competitive market and the current labor market? >Only part of their wage is rent - if deepika earns 10k rs/month and Danielle earns 100k rs, the rent is 90k. Assuming deepika and Danielle are the same person.

You are correct that all models are imperfect, and you can compute second order corrections to my sketch of rents (e.g. subtract overhead for offshore operation).

None of this changes the conclusion that Deepika (a real person and a friend of mine, albeit not named deepika) has escaped poverty thanks to her job at a call center. Based on our previous conversations I know you dont consider her as valuable as a hypothetical american (ugh, dirty foreigners with animal gods and spicy foods), but that's simply a normative difference.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#124

Post by diminoten »

crdoconnor wrote: post #10
qq66 wrote: post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

>Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Ok, so that's one that you cherry picked. How about these? * Private equity CEOs * Lobbyists * PR researchers * Telemarketers * Bailiffs Tell us how the world would be worse off without them. You could argue that some of these are doing actual harm to society, actually.

You honestly can't be so arrogant so as to assume that if you can't see the benefit of an activity, that it must not have any benefit, right?

Lobbyists are critical to the functioning of the American system of government. They're even mentioned in the Constitution.

Private equity firms make retirement possible.

PR researchers enable companies to not have to deal exclusively with the populist swaying of public opinion. Public opinion, generally speaking, is an awful way to do business and to make decisions. Mobs are cruel.

I could go on but this method of dealing with your issues is unsustainable. Suffice it to say that you're just going to have to live with the fact that you don't understand everything and that's okay.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#125

Post by zo1 »

ddeck wrote: post #55

The entire asset management industry is a candidate for the bullshit job title. Within the equity asset class for example, aggregate performance is worse than passive investments and there is ample evidence that substantially all managers are unable to actually provide the service they are selling. As an industry, it effectively taxes savings and distributes those taxes to the employees within the industry, sometimes…

>"[..]but the reality is that most countries have mandated retirement savings mechanisms that efficiently funnel employee pensions and savings into the industry."

I wouldn't quite use the word mandated. But at least in the case where I am currently, South Africa, all sorts of financial instruments such as the ones you mention, are heavily "pushed" by government via various means. I.e. tax-exemption benefits, incentivizing insurance/financial brokers into pushing by making it a regulated license industry (protected status), and plain out funding the industry by using it to give government employees plushy "retirement packages" in the form of these instruments.

It's such a sad state of affairs (at least in this small subset of discussion). I've actually been wondering about it quite a lot recently. While I watch perfectly smart, educated individuals being effectively "tricked" into putting huge amounts of their monthly earnings to save up for "retirement" because it's "tax-exempt". Ironically, all those savings get taxed as "income" anyways when they withdraw from it in retirement. Wait, it's not funny.

Meanwhile, whilst they are busy being coaxed into this scheme due to "tax exemption" benefits, they're paying mounds of interest on car and home loans that they could pay off ridiculously sooner. Those loans that are constantly funding financial institutions? You could argue that it's another way in which the government is "funneling" capital into it.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#126

Post by adventured »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #87
crdoconnor wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Off-shoring is a wonderful example of private equity types reducing global inequality Pitting third world workers against first world workers isn't good for either of them in the long run. The same threat that hangs over US workers (we will offshore your job if you unionize and demand higher wages) actually hangs over 3rd world workers too (we will reshore your job if you unionize and demand higher wage). It's a win…

The rent captured by us workers is the price delta between a competitive market and one with barriers to trade. Only part of their wage is rent - if deepika earns 10k rs/month and Danielle earns 100k rs, the rent is 90k. As for income (not wages, which is a subse of income), data is easily googleable. http://m.research.stlouisfed.org/fred/series.php?sid=COMPRNF...

Your equation leaves out the technological contribution to making the jobs possible in the first place; the innovation, the science / R&D, etc.

The rent is not 90k in that case. The rent is negative, in favor of the US; the US economy has benefited most other countries far more than those countries have benefited it. Most of the world gets a vast free rider benefit from what the US economy accomplished in the last ~140 years.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#127

Post by intopieces »

spydum wrote: post #93
_abattoir wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When most people say "bullshit job", it seems to me like they really mean "job that could be solved by a well-built machine". Farming used to be a bullshit job until we built gigantic combines and automated watering systems and agricultural data storage systems, and now our farming problems are electronic, not logistic. (except for water, but that's another story.) So for the example of an actuary, ideally their job…

> The moral of the story is we should automate jobs that people don't like doing. who decides what jobs people dont like doing? Just because you might not like being a taxi driver, farmer, actuary, etc, doesnt mean you should demolish the job with automation -- plenty of people find these jobs provide a fulfilling workday and are passionate about them. any automation there would deprive them of doing them as a profes…

Allow me to turn it back on you: what if your sentiment had prevailed at any time during our current revolution in automation? Say a group of factory workers protest automation not because it puts them out of a job, but because they like what they do (a totally unnecessary distinction - part of the reason I like my job is that it lets me eat and pay bills). Are you sympathetic to preventing automation then? Or is our current level of automation just right because it has presented you with the least amount of challenge to your job?

No, we should encourage automation full-tilt. Jobs are lost every day to automation, and the promise of a world where the workweek is short to nonexistent is one we should embrace, not reject because some people like their jobs. If we work hard enough to bring this to fruition, the actuary can crunch numbers on his own time if he wants -- or is free to explore thousands of other hobbies.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#128

Post by mousa »

qq66 wrote: post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

There are jobs that are legitimately BS and everyone within the industry knows it but works hard at it anyways because it's their job.

In the investment world there are a lot that come to mind.

A large number of financial advisors' entire job is just sales: they get clients funneled to companies that do the stock picking. They know these companies will not beat the indexes but it's safe, accepted, absolves them somewhat of responsibility when things go south, and these companies give them all the talking points they need to deal with clients efficiently so they can collect more.

Those companies see their job as not being out of line with the stock market indexes. They have to be a little different to justify their existence but not different enough to risk being way short of the benchmark. It is impossible for them to beat the market with their levels of risk aversion + fees, and there is no real incentive to do so. Within these companies, a large majority of the effort therefore goes to marketing to financial advisors trying to get their clients' money.

That's putting aside the question of whether there is any societal value if these RIA's were even trying and succeeding at getting more returns for their clients.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#129

Post by adventured »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #94
darawk wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) Off-shoring is a consequence of poorly thought out and even more poorly enforced tax-laws, not private equity firms. b) If you have a private equity investor stomping around your startup, it's because you solicited their investment. If you didn't want it, don't take the money. Simple.

a) Private equity has always pushed for off-shoring and for a favourable tax culture. This is only a government failure to the extent that government hasn't resisted lobbying efforts from the PEs. b) So you're saying founders have a choice between accepting bullying or being starved of funding? Perhaps that's not the positive argument for PE it might appear to be. The reality is that PE culture vampirises and kills r…

First, people keep saying "private equity" - most investment in the US is private equity (eg every time an angel invests into a company, it's a private equity investment).

I will assume what is being referred to here, is LBO or more aggressive acquisition type firms like Bain.

The parent is right however, if Bain comes knocking on your private business, it's up to you as to whether you take their money. They do not use force to make you take their money or terms. I don't think the parent is making an argument in favor of these companies being saints, rather, that they function on a voluntary basis.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#130

Post by jchrisa »

zo1 wrote: post #117
aerocapture wrote: post #92

Instead of asking ourselves which particular jobs are "bullshit" and which are not, maybe we should ask why we need or want "jobs" at all. If every citizen received some minimum universal basic income, what might we do with our time instead of going to jobs we hate? I think the point might be that we've reached a state of technological progress where many of the functions of a modern civilization can be handled by a…

>" If every citizen received some minimum universal basic income, what might we do with our time instead of going to jobs we hate? " I think you need to quantify what you mean by that. It seems that every time I hear this UBI idea being defended with a sentence similar to the one you made, the tone set implies that something "beneficial" will happen that does not because they go do jobs they "hate". I.e. If we free o…

Yes. If everyone had the privilege to laze around like I do, I can guarantee there would be more startups / art / culture.
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