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“So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

theguardian.com

91–100 of 206 posts

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#91
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, you can make that sort of broad argument about anything. For example, you could say slavers were trying to reallocate labor from where it was less productive (African subsistence farming) to where it was more productive (building the American economy). The point being made here is whether Private Equity CEOs are contributing anything substantial apart from concentrating capital. The answer to that has to…

>For example, you could say slavers were trying to reallocate labor from where it was less productive (African subsistence farming) to where it was more productive (building the American economy). I think that's a different discourse. Slave labour was not a "bullshit job", it was productive. However, it was unethical. You can have productive jobs which are unethical, but that's a separate discussion from bullshit job…

>I think that's a different discourse. Slave labour was not a "bullshit job", it was productive.

That depends on how you do the accounting. If you account for slave labor as the cost of minimal food and housing, then it's not only productive, it's cheaper than almost anything else, especially because the slaves are property, so you can breed them and get a return-on-investment while also extracting labor.

Of course, if you account for slave labor in terms of some equivalent to wages, then all of a sudden society has reason to stop using slave labor and innovate instead. Ditto for today's low-wage labor in which sub-living wages end up subsidized by state antipoverty benefits.

Society has always faced a choice between exploitation and innovation, a zero-sum arrangement and a positive-sum arrangement. Unfortunately, rarely has it been wise enough to choose the latter.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#92
Instead of asking ourselves which particular jobs are "bullshit" and which are not, maybe we should ask why we need or want "jobs" at all. If every citizen received some minimum universal basic income, what might we do with our time instead of going to jobs we hate?

I think the point might be that we've reached a state of technological progress where many of the functions of a modern civilization can be handled by a very few people. Maybe it's time to redefine what we mean by "work" and why we do it.

https://contributoria.com/issue/2014-12/543d1c2487628e9a6500...

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#93
post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

When most people say "bullshit job", it seems to me like they really mean "job that could be solved by a well-built machine". Farming used to be a bullshit job until we built gigantic combines and automated watering systems and agricultural data storage systems, and now our farming problems are electronic, not logistic. (except for water, but that's another story.) So for the example of an actuary, ideally their job…

> The moral of the story is we should automate jobs that people don't like doing.

who decides what jobs people dont like doing? Just because you might not like being a taxi driver, farmer, actuary, etc, doesnt mean you should demolish the job with automation -- plenty of people find these jobs provide a fulfilling workday and are passionate about them. any automation there would deprive them of doing them as a profession, which is somewhat sad.

ill take it a bit further: how would we feel if tomorrow, we woke up and some guys from stanford published new research on AI which can automagically produce working software given a set of requirements -- and they give it away for free. the role of software development is no longer required, since this AI can do the job in seconds without bugs (you know, assuming requirements can be written without bugs!). what then of software developers? our jobs no longer make economic sense. you'll need to find one of those jobs not solved by a computer.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#94
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why we have off-shoring, and stagnant or dropping real income for that segment of the population that still has a job. Are these good things? Is it a good thing when a private equity investor starts stomping around your startup demanding you treat your hires like exploitable assets and not like friends or colleagues you respect?

a) Off-shoring is a consequence of poorly thought out and even more poorly enforced tax-laws, not private equity firms. b) If you have a private equity investor stomping around your startup, it's because you solicited their investment. If you didn't want it, don't take the money. Simple.

a) Private equity has always pushed for off-shoring and for a favourable tax culture. This is only a government failure to the extent that government hasn't resisted lobbying efforts from the PEs.

b) So you're saying founders have a choice between accepting bullying or being starved of funding? Perhaps that's not the positive argument for PE it might appear to be.

The reality is that PE culture vampirises and kills real businesses and real affluence. It's only investment in the most toxic and predatory sense.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#95
post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

When most people say "bullshit job", it seems to me like they really mean "job that could be solved by a well-built machine". Farming used to be a bullshit job until we built gigantic combines and automated watering systems and agricultural data storage systems, and now our farming problems are electronic, not logistic. (except for water, but that's another story.) So for the example of an actuary, ideally their job…

No when they say "bullshit" jobs they mean sort of non job that is satirized in the laundry files.

you know the sort "children's play area green sustainability consultant"

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#96
post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

I expect he wants the world to change more fundamentally than that - per your example, if you have a good state-provided health service then the health insurance question is simply no longer an issue. There are of course countries that do this already. I think motor insurance would be a more difficult one to do away with - the question being if people didn't have to pay for any accidents they caused (via insurance pr…

er so what does he think the NI Stamp (social security) pays for

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#97
post #29

We are living in a post-industrial service economy. Many jobs are not unnecessary, just routine and unglamorous.

I live in Sweden and right now we are automating the service industry as well. You order fast food from a touch screen, you buy your train tickets from a machine and the supermarket cashier is being replaced with a self-checkout. Meanwhile I still have about 50+ working hours every week. I pay about 65% of the money I make in tax so the people that were laid off through service automation can receive unemployment ben…

However, the good part with buying train tickets from a machine is that the machine always knows your local language (in this case, Swedish, and English, and possibly a variety of other languages). This is not necessarily true with low-paid service workers. I'm pretty happy to buy my Arlanda Express tickets from a machine. You'd never have enough service booths if they had to have people in them.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#98
post #62
post #55

The entire asset management industry is a candidate for the bullshit job title. Within the equity asset class for example, aggregate performance is worse than passive investments and there is ample evidence that substantially all managers are unable to actually provide the service they are selling. As an industry, it effectively taxes savings and distributes those taxes to the employees within the industry, sometimes…

Wow, I'm surprised to see a comment so critical of Venture Capitalists on HN. But I guess it's fair: The VC industry as a whole badly underperforms the S&P index on a risk-adjusted basis. Or aren't those the asset managers you were talking about?

But VC's are investing in very high risk investments not the sort of mature companies that big generalist funds/trusts invest in.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer does not have to be "no." Private equity is one of the most valuable functions of a market based economy, and that's understating its importance. To say the head of a private equity firm serves no purpose, is to claim allocating private capital in a market economy needs nobody in charge of that process at the company doing it. Nearly all venture capital is private equity. Sam Altman is the President of a p…

This is why I wrote in paranthesis that I am talking about refashioned lbo firms, not vc firms. I am talking about KKR, Bain Capital ( not Bain Ventures), Blackstone and the like. I am NOT talking about firms like Kleiner Perkins and Sequoia.

Then why not say leveraged buyout firms, since your issue is with an exceptionally small segment of private equity, instead of referring in general terms to private equity (and PE CEOs) across your entire post?

Having a good understanding of what KKR does, I fail to see how they're so bad. Most of KKR's deals have involved voluntary buyouts, which were then spun back off and voluntarily purchased by other investors. Almost all of the deals that made them famous in the 1980s were friendly deals.

Can you give me a better understanding, in a short summary, of why KKR is so terrible?

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#100
post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

Marketing/advertising is a bullshit job 99% of the time (the only time it isn't is when the product you are marketing is not well known and is a better option for some people than a competitor's product).
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