Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sabbath mode

en.wikipedia.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 175 posts

Re: Sabbath mode

#141

Post by paganel »

reuven wrote: post #51
darklajid wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My entirely useless and anecdotal meeting with Jewish people lead me to believe that this is really mostly a 'pick your parts'.. :) Like, 'Seafood is really okay, I eat that. Pork? No way'. Or 'I don't care about Shabbat all that much, but try to avoid grain based stuff during Passover' etc. etc. The situation is more complicated off course, because I still haven't figured out if I read 'Jewish' as a nation, religion…

Judaism is a throwback to ancient times, in which there was no distinction between your nation and your religion. Joining a nation meant joining the religion; moving elsewhere meant (often) adopting another religion. Jews, after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, found ways to keep the religion going even in the absence of national sovereignty or a centralized religious authority. But the notion of a "people…

I understand of course why Hebrew (the language) plays such an important role for Jewish people, but as non-believer d from Eastern Europe I'm also kind of sad at the conttinuous fall in usage of Yiddish. Some of the most beautiful songs I've heard were sung in Yiddish (of which I don't understand a word), plus, as far as I've read, there was all this fantastic Yiddish literature that developed in the late 1800s-early 1900s. Yes, I of course know of the tragic events that had a significant impact on the existance of the Jewish culture in Eastern Europe (including its language), I just wished the state of Israel had more actively supported this language.

The same can be said of the Ladino language and of the all Sephardic culture in general, which from quite far away it seems like it is slowly disappearing (which would be a real shame, because I find the Sephardic culture one of the most interesting ones and in a way one that defines the history of Europe of the last 500 years)

Re: Sabbath mode

#142

Post by alnafie »

freehunter wrote: post #3

Clever hack, but if you're coming up with ways to circumvent your religion's practices, are you really still practicing your religion?

The Quran actually contains a story about a Jewish coastal town that would put their nets out to catch fish before the Sabbath and collect them after the Sabbath. The story is meant to be a warning against going by the letter of the law and ignoring the spirit of it. See [7:163 to 7:170].

Re: Sabbath mode

#143

Post by jeffwass »

reuven wrote: post #68
jeffwass wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't see having such cakes as a loophole, or even contrary to the spirit of the holiday, because the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened and bread products. I don't follow you here. Cakes are leavened, and the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened products. In my view, that makes the Kosher for Passover cakes (which are effectively leavened) a loophole. Or are you suggesting the Kosher for Passover ca…

Yes. Kosher-for-Passover cakes don't fall under the rules of leavening (chametz) in Jewish law. Sometimes they're made with potato flour. (Yuck.) Sometimes they're made with matza meal, which means very finely ground pieces of matza. The idea is that once flour has been wet and baked into matza, further contact with water won't leaven it. Some Jews don't accept this "wet matza" rule, but the majority do. If someone m…

Yup, I know the Kosher-for-Passover cakes don't fall under the strictly defined rules of leavening, that's why they're officially Kosher as certified by a Rabbi.

But for all intents and purposes, again in just my common-person's view, they're effectively leavened. Just like normal breads and cakes, they're fluffy and squishy with tons of tiny air pockets created during the baking process. To me that means leavened.

: Another one of my confusions (as a Reform jew) is the Shabbat restriction of not doing work by making a spark. Okay, so one is supposed to avoid work on the Day of Rest by walking a mile to synagogue instead of driving 5 minutes in a car. Or walking up 10 flights of stairs to their apartment instead of getting in an elevator.

To me it would be more consistent to agree to re-interpret instead what it means to 'make a spark' as per the state of technology in the biblical times. Ie doing it with sticks or flint & steel can be considered work, vs the passive closing of an electrical circuit.

Re: Sabbath mode

#144

Post by thaumasiotes »

reuven wrote: post #131
X-Istence wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unsurprisingly there is a very large population that doesn't reside in the United States of America.

I got a US phone number via Skype, simply because so many of my American clients had no idea how to call internationally. Similarly, for many of my US clients, I provide them with their first-ever opportunity to send a letter (i.e., my check) via international mail.

I'm kind of curious why it makes sense to get a US number to accommodate clients who can't (?!) make international calls, but not to get a mail forwarding service with a US address.

Re: Sabbath mode

#145

Post by thaumasiotes »

bitwize wrote: post #109
MichaelAza wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a non-observant Jew and have several observant friends. I always joke with them that Jews are the first hackers, finding ways to circumvent their own religious laws. Some other clever hacks "exploited" by Jews over the years: * Say a door needs to be opened by a button. For some reason which I can't quite remember right now, you can't just press the button to open the door, but say that after you press the button…

> I always joke with them that Jews are the first hackers, There's a reason why ethnic Jews tend to concentrate very strongly in hackerdom. They were the first wiki editors as well -- consider the millennia of rabbinical commentary attached to the Talmud.

> consider the millennia of rabbinical commentary attached to the Talmud

How does this differentiate Jews from any other culture with writing?

Re: Sabbath mode

#146

Post by woofyman »

The sabbath mode on my oven: 1) oven light is disabled when you open the door 2) when you press the start button, the oven starts after a random period of time

Re: Sabbath mode

#147

Post by reuven »

jeffwass wrote: post #143
reuven wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Kosher-for-Passover cakes don't fall under the rules of leavening (chametz) in Jewish law. Sometimes they're made with potato flour. (Yuck.) Sometimes they're made with matza meal, which means very finely ground pieces of matza. The idea is that once flour has been wet and baked into matza, further contact with water won't leaven it. Some Jews don't accept this "wet matza" rule, but the majority do. If someone m…

Yup, I know the Kosher-for-Passover cakes don't fall under the strictly defined rules of leavening, that's why they're officially Kosher as certified by a Rabbi. But for all intents and purposes, again in just my common-person's view, they're effectively leavened. Just like normal breads and cakes, they're fluffy and squishy with tons of tiny air pockets created during the baking process. To me that means leavened. :…

Jeff: They might be effectively leavened, but that's the whole point of a legal system, and of scholars to interpret it. What looks to you (or me) as a layperson like the same thing might not be the same at all. In this case, the technical definition trumps what might seem like leavening to you, because of debates and decisions that rabbis had about 2,000 years ago.

Of course, you can decide not to eat such kosher-for-Passover products. I do know some people who refuse to eat things that look like the year-round versions, because they feel like it's too close to the "real" thing."

As for sparks and electricity, the legal reasoning has nothing to do with "work." It has to do with "melacha," which is often poorly translated as "work," but has absolutely nothing to do with physical exertion. Rather, it has to do with creation, destruction, or just changing the nature of the world.

For 2,000 years, Jews have avoided anything having to do with light or fire on Shabbat. Electricity posed a bit of a problem -- here was a way of lighting and heating that was previously unknown, and which didn't fit previous legal categories. Should it be allowed or not? There were debates over this, and many Conservative rabbis argue that it's totally OK to use electricity on Shabbat.

I grew up in a home that used electricity on Shabbat, and I slowly came to the conclusion that even if it's permitted to use electricity, my Shabbat is radically enhanced by not doing so. Not using the computer, not using the phone, not watching TV -- these make my experience better and special, rather than worse.

Is that sometimes a pain? Yes, it is. But I have found that the trade-off is more than worthwhile.

Moreover, as I wrote in a previous comment, much of Jewish law is a forcing function toward community involvement. By forbidding people to drive on Shabbat, you increase the chances of having a culture of home hospitality and spending time with friends -- something is nearly universal among people who don't drive on Shabbat, and something which is almost completely non-existent among those who do.

Even if you could argue that driving a car is OK on Shabbat (and there are very few ways to justify that; remember that it's also forbidden to drive a horse or ride a bicycle), the social ramifications that I've seen are almost entirely detrimental to the community. Non-driving communities tend to be much closer knit than those in which people do drive.

So, why not do these things? Because it changes the way in which the day operates -- for you, for your family, and for your community. This doesn't mean that it's meaningful or appropriate for everyone, I'll admit.

Re: Sabbath mode

#148

Post by kibibu »

ars wrote: post #102
seszett wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are just trying to bend definitions to make them agree with what you're saying. The common definition for "god", from http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/god#Noun is "A supernatural, typically immortal being with superior powers". The "supernatural", "being" and "superior powers" parts are very clear. If you can accept that a supernatural being with superior powers created existence, then you cannot be atheist. If you…

Whatever created existence (or the big bang) is by definition supernatural (which means outside nature). So my definition is not different, just differently formulated. > If you can accept that a supernatural being with superior powers created existence, then you cannot be atheist. Using your definition no atheists even exist, or at least they are illogical because clearly existence exists. It was created somehow . O…

> Whatever created existence (or the big bang) is by definition supernatural

This doesn't follow. It is by definition natural because it occurred naturally.

Re: Sabbath mode

#149

Post by bluedino »

MichaelAza wrote: post #17
freehunter wrote: post #3

Clever hack, but if you're coming up with ways to circumvent your religion's practices, are you really still practicing your religion?

I'm a non-observant Jew and have several observant friends. I always joke with them that Jews are the first hackers, finding ways to circumvent their own religious laws. Some other clever hacks "exploited" by Jews over the years: * Say a door needs to be opened by a button. For some reason which I can't quite remember right now, you can't just press the button to open the door, but say that after you press the button…

We make a device, and have a Shabbat version. It is operated normally by a switch, and when you set it to Shabbat mode the switch stays open and just lets a trickle of current through, not enough to move the device but since the circuit never closes you aren't doing any work when you then operate the switch.

Re: Sabbath mode

#150

Post by _halgari »

freehunter wrote: post #3

Clever hack, but if you're coming up with ways to circumvent your religion's practices, are you really still practicing your religion?

This (among a few other reasons) is why Jesus went on a rant against the religious leaders of the day in Matthew chapter 23.

One of the practices at the time was for Pharisees to give all their possessions to the temple (of which they were members), therefore effectively being so poor that they could tell their elderly parents: "I have nothing to give you", this practice was known as Corban. Jesus condemned the people of the day for that in Mark 7.

In short, as Jesus said: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves"

Post reply on HN