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Sabbath mode

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Re: Sabbath mode

#101

Post by kzhahou »

kps wrote: post #59
chimeracoder wrote: post #5

Somewhat related: B&H, an electronics store in New York owned by Hasidic Jews not only closes its brick & mortar store on Saturdays, but its website as well: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/ Screenshot for anyone looking at this after 8:30 EDT today: https://i.imgur.com/XvZHDXA.png

Their main competitor, Adorama, is also owned by Hasidic Jews, but lets people file web orders, considering it sufficient to not processes those orders until later.

Actually, the modern interpretation is that it's ok to take an order and store it in an in-memory database, but you can't commit a transaction to disk or even write it to logs. This functionality is built into ShabbatDB (shabbatdb.io).

Re: Sabbath mode

#102

Post by ars »

seszett wrote: post #97
ars wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So clearly you belong to the branch that just ignores the topic of where existence comes from. I define God very simply: That which created existence. You can not just disbelieve in existence, so you have to clarify what kind of atheist you are. You are probably using a definition of God as: An intelligence that created existence.

You are just trying to bend definitions to make them agree with what you're saying. The common definition for "god", from http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/god#Noun is "A supernatural, typically immortal being with superior powers". The "supernatural", "being" and "superior powers" parts are very clear. If you can accept that a supernatural being with superior powers created existence, then you cannot be atheist. If you…

Whatever created existence (or the big bang) is by definition supernatural (which means outside nature). So my definition is not different, just differently formulated.

> If you can accept that a supernatural being with superior powers created existence, then you cannot be atheist.

Using your definition no atheists even exist, or at least they are illogical because clearly existence exists. It was created somehow. Or are we going to argue about the word "being" in that sentence?

Because if you are, know that I use that definition because any other is not sufficient to describe the full range of human beliefs. So yes, there is a range in atheism, it is not binary.

Re: Sabbath mode

#103

Post by kzhahou »

croddin wrote: post #10

The problem with posting this on a Saturday is that any readers of hacker news that use these devices will be unable to comment.

True. Reading HN must obviously be work, since we all spend so much time here when we're supposed to be working instead :-)

Re: Sabbath mode

#104

Post by ars »

morgante wrote: post #100
ars wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was all it was they could easily hire a non-Jew to monitor it.

You can't hire a non-Jew to specifically monitor it on the Sabbath.

That's true. But you can hire him full time.

Re: Sabbath mode

#106

Post by shliachtx »

Jewish law states that "six days you shall work, on on the seventh day you shall rest". The Talmud explains that this "rest" (while including) does not specifically refer to manual labor, rather the act of creation, embodied in the 39 "categories" of work which were performed in, and when building, the Tabernacle (the predecessor to the Temple, originally built after Sinai, which accompanied the Jews throughout their travels in the desert). The Talmud discusses at length what is included in these categories, what is considered similar enough to be forbidden as well, etc.

Essentially, these aren't loopholes, but ways of getting the same results without performing any forbidden acts. Of course, there are things which are frowned upon as not within the "spirit" of the Sabbath, e.g. leaving a television on.

In addition, I noticed some people mentioned the "eruv", a string around a neighborhood which allows the residents to carry within it on the Sabbath. This too is not really a loophole, as the biblical prohibition of carrying on the Sabbath was only to and from or inside a public thoroughfare (at least 24-36 feet wide, with at least 600,000 people passing through each day), which is relatively uncommon. The Rabbis of the Talmud (in accordance with the teaching "make boundaries around the Torah"in order to prevent people from accidentally transgressing the Torah) further added the prohibition to carry to and from or inside "semi-public" areas or, to put it another way, non-private areas, or from one area (private or otherwise) to another. With this added prohibition, however, they included an exception. That is, if one puts a fence or string around the entire area (again, this excludes "true" public thoroughfares), thereby symbolically making it one area, one is permitted to carry within it. This is not technically a "loophole", but a solution that ensures that one remembers not to carry in a public area on the Sabbath.

Jewish law is much more complex, logically built, and developed than one might think, and I encourage you not to dismiss most observant Jews' practice of it as "cheating", or "hypocritical".

This is of course a very limited discussion of the topics involved, as most observant Jews spend years (!) studying the laws and their implications. For further reference I would recommend you visit http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/6967/.

Re: Sabbath mode

#107

Post by sciurus »

kzhahou wrote: post #101
kps wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their main competitor, Adorama, is also owned by Hasidic Jews, but lets people file web orders, considering it sufficient to not processes those orders until later.

Actually, the modern interpretation is that it's ok to take an order and store it in an in-memory database, but you can't commit a transaction to disk or even write it to logs. This functionality is built into ShabbatDB (shabbatdb.io).

Are you trolling? I can't find any evidence that shabbatdb exists.

Re: Sabbath mode

#108

Post by 9872 »

ars wrote: post #92
ithkuil wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm _I_ collecting the money when a third party (or automated process) deposits it on my bank account? It would be the equivalent of delegating that responsibility to a non-jew. I don't know how would that be ruled, but I remember reading that it's allowed to let non-jew servants perform tasks on the sabbath, though I have no idea if it's accepted by the Hasidics.

> I'm _I_ collecting the money when a third party (or automated process) deposits it on my bank account? Yes. You don't have to physically touch it to own it. There is a concept of "clearing", once the money clears it's yours. The dispute is if it's enough to avoid clearing payments, or if you should avoid taking any orders altogether. > It would be the equivalent of delegating that responsibility to a non-jew. I don…

Easy solution to the last problem - create all AI to be Jewish, presumably by having a Jewish woman program it. Then it has to observe shabbos in its own right without you worrying about comparing it to a servant or an animal.

Re: Sabbath mode

#109

Post by bitwize »

MichaelAza wrote: post #17
freehunter wrote: post #3

Clever hack, but if you're coming up with ways to circumvent your religion's practices, are you really still practicing your religion?

I'm a non-observant Jew and have several observant friends. I always joke with them that Jews are the first hackers, finding ways to circumvent their own religious laws. Some other clever hacks "exploited" by Jews over the years: * Say a door needs to be opened by a button. For some reason which I can't quite remember right now, you can't just press the button to open the door, but say that after you press the button…

> I always joke with them that Jews are the first hackers,

There's a reason why ethnic Jews tend to concentrate very strongly in hackerdom.

They were the first wiki editors as well -- consider the millennia of rabbinical commentary attached to the Talmud.

Re: Sabbath mode

#110

Post by ninguem2 »

darklajid wrote: post #45
reuven wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to the world of Jewish law, in which it's considered acceptable to find ways around rules. For example: Jews aren't allowed to eat leavened food, known as "chamets," (e.g., bread) on Passover. We're also not allowed to own leavened products. What do you do with all of the food that you bought before Passover? In theory, you have to throw it out, which would be a huge waste of money. The solution is to sell th…

This, by the way, is a huge problem for a German expat in IL (back in DE now) during Passover. Not only do they hide bread, there's a certain golden drink that is just as off limits in all the 'following' supermarkets and that's quite interesting. (I kid. Yes, you don't get bread and beer, in theory. Tel Aviv has lots of shops that aren't Jewish or don't care or .. so it's mostly a sight to be seen and a way to explo…

I was lost here for a minute until I finally realized that IL was Israel not Illinois.
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