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Sabbath mode

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Re: Sabbath mode

#61

Post by wolfgke »

StavrosK wrote: post #39
mikeash wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Jewish response to this that I've seen is pretty sensible: if God didn't want there to be loopholes then there wouldn't be any.

The same can be applied to everything, so God wants there to be sin. If God wanting sin to exist means that sin is fine, why are the loopholes necessary? Just sin. If God wanting sin to exist doesn't mean that sin is fine, then loopholes may also not be fine, even though they exist.

Couldn't it be, that God wants sin to exist, so that he can punish sinful people (come on, it's probably lots of fun for him ;-) )?

Re: Sabbath mode

#62

Post by reuven »

jeffwass wrote: post #60
reuven wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to the world of Jewish law, in which it's considered acceptable to find ways around rules. For example: Jews aren't allowed to eat leavened food, known as "chamets," (e.g., bread) on Passover. We're also not allowed to own leavened products. What do you do with all of the food that you bought before Passover? In theory, you have to throw it out, which would be a huge waste of money. The solution is to sell th…

In my own view, as a reform Jew, many of the Kosher for Passover items that even Orthodox consume are loopholes anyway, like Kosher for Passover cakes. In the words of my friend - "OK, we eat Matzah because when we left Egypt we didn't have time to let the bread rise. But somehow we had time to beat the egg-whites stiff?" For those that don't know, during Passover, the spirit of the law is that we don't eat leavened…

How about this: The Egyptians invented yeast and leavened bread, and worshipped sheep. So how did Jews celebrate Passover, and the exodus from Egypt? By sacrificing a sheep, and refraining from eating anything made with yeast.

When the Temple was destroyed in Jerusalem, the sacrifice disappeared. Only the eating restrictions (beyond regular holiday restrictions) remained.

Over the years, different communities decided that other foods looked like grains, or acted like grains, or could be confused with grains. So they (e.g., corn, rice, and lentils) were restricted, as well, as part of this "spirit."

In Israel, I'm happy to say that you can get anything you want on Passover, except for things made with the original five grains and allowed to leaven (yes, for 18 minutes). You can have just about anything you want. Which is just fine with me; the point of Passover isn't to suffer, but rather to go without leavened bread for a week.

There's nothing inherently wrong with having kosher for Passover cakes. But once you have one, you'll avoid ever doing so again, I promise. (The kosher-for-Passover "rolls" are even worse!) I don't see having such cakes as a loophole, or even contrary to the spirit of the holiday, because the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened and bread products.

Re: Sabbath mode

#63

Post by StavrosK »

wolfgke wrote: post #61
StavrosK wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same can be applied to everything, so God wants there to be sin. If God wanting sin to exist means that sin is fine, why are the loopholes necessary? Just sin. If God wanting sin to exist doesn't mean that sin is fine, then loopholes may also not be fine, even though they exist.

Couldn't it be, that God wants sin to exist, so that he can punish sinful people (come on, it's probably lots of fun for him ;-) )?

Yes, it can. And he may also similarly punish people who use loopholes.

Re: Sabbath mode

#64

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

reuven wrote: post #52
cssmoo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was a god he'd probably be facepalming.

Actually, there's a famous story in the Talmud of a rabbinical debate in which the rabbis argue about whether a certain oven is kosher or not. At the end of the story, one of the rabbis is told that God's reaction to this debate is, "My children have defeated me." The Jewish attitude is that God wants us to debate these laws, and that if we come up with interpretations that seem counter to the literal verses in the B…

Except for Karaites...

Re: Sabbath mode

#65

Post by jeffwass »

reuven wrote: post #62
jeffwass wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my own view, as a reform Jew, many of the Kosher for Passover items that even Orthodox consume are loopholes anyway, like Kosher for Passover cakes. In the words of my friend - "OK, we eat Matzah because when we left Egypt we didn't have time to let the bread rise. But somehow we had time to beat the egg-whites stiff?" For those that don't know, during Passover, the spirit of the law is that we don't eat leavened…

How about this: The Egyptians invented yeast and leavened bread, and worshipped sheep. So how did Jews celebrate Passover, and the exodus from Egypt? By sacrificing a sheep, and refraining from eating anything made with yeast. When the Temple was destroyed in Jerusalem, the sacrifice disappeared. Only the eating restrictions (beyond regular holiday restrictions) remained. Over the years, different communities decided…

>I don't see having such cakes as a loophole, or even contrary to the spirit of the holiday, because the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened and bread products.

I don't follow you here.

Cakes are leavened, and the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened products. In my view, that makes the Kosher for Passover cakes (which are effectively leavened) a loophole.

Or are you suggesting the Kosher for Passover cakes are not really leavened?

Re: Sabbath mode

#66

Post by seszett »

anotherevan wrote: post #58
reuven wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to the world of Jewish law, in which it's considered acceptable to find ways around rules. For example: Jews aren't allowed to eat leavened food, known as "chamets," (e.g., bread) on Passover. We're also not allowed to own leavened products. What do you do with all of the food that you bought before Passover? In theory, you have to throw it out, which would be a huge waste of money. The solution is to sell th…

This reminds me, when I was thirteen, we visited some friends of my parents, in Pennsylvania, who were Mennonites, but there was an Amish community near by and we would see people in the typical garb as well as horse and carts. Once story our friends told us, is that Amish are not allowed to own a house with electricity connected to it. So they never make the final payment on their bank loans, so they never technical…

> no matter what belief or religion you observe, be it Christian, Jew, Buddhist or Atheist, there will always be those that follow the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law when it suits their own interests.

I object to you including "atheist" in this list, as atheism is exactly the opposite of that, it's not like an organized religion where you can follow the spirit of the law or not. It just means you believe that no god exists. Either you believe (or know, if you're atheist) that, or you don't, it's not at all comparable to religions.

Re: Sabbath mode

#67

Post by reuven »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #64
reuven wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, there's a famous story in the Talmud of a rabbinical debate in which the rabbis argue about whether a certain oven is kosher or not. At the end of the story, one of the rabbis is told that God's reaction to this debate is, "My children have defeated me." The Jewish attitude is that God wants us to debate these laws, and that if we come up with interpretations that seem counter to the literal verses in the B…

Except for Karaites...

Ya know, we were always taught about Karaites in school, but I didn't realize that they still existed until about 20 years ago, when a friend mentioned that he knew one.

There is a Karaite community in Israel, and I've read some fascinating newspaper articles about them. Claiming that they only accept the literal word of the Bible, without any interpretation, is a bit far-fetched, given that the Bible is so ambiguous and self-contradictory. But some of their interpretations, such as the date of the Shavuot holiday, are pretty reasonable -- except that Jews have basically voted with their feet to reject those interpretations.

I think that Karaites are pretty cool, even if (or perhaps because) they're not mainstream. And they demonstrate, I think, Judaism's penchant for pluralism.

Re: Sabbath mode

#68

Post by reuven »

jeffwass wrote: post #65
reuven wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about this: The Egyptians invented yeast and leavened bread, and worshipped sheep. So how did Jews celebrate Passover, and the exodus from Egypt? By sacrificing a sheep, and refraining from eating anything made with yeast. When the Temple was destroyed in Jerusalem, the sacrifice disappeared. Only the eating restrictions (beyond regular holiday restrictions) remained. Over the years, different communities decided…

>I don't see having such cakes as a loophole, or even contrary to the spirit of the holiday, because the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened and bread products. I don't follow you here. Cakes are leavened, and the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened products. In my view, that makes the Kosher for Passover cakes (which are effectively leavened) a loophole. Or are you suggesting the Kosher for Passover ca…

Yes. Kosher-for-Passover cakes don't fall under the rules of leavening (chametz) in Jewish law.

Sometimes they're made with potato flour. (Yuck.)

Sometimes they're made with matza meal, which means very finely ground pieces of matza. The idea is that once flour has been wet and baked into matza, further contact with water won't leaven it. Some Jews don't accept this "wet matza" rule, but the majority do.

If someone made kosher-for-Passover cakes that were hard to distinguish from regular, year-round leavened cakes, then you might have a point, and perhaps they would be forbidden. But I don't think that anyone is ever going to make that claim. So given that they're different from year-round cakes, and given that they're not leavened anyway according to Jewish law, they're considered acceptable.

Pro tip: Ice cream on kosher-for-Passover cakes makes them far more palatable.

Re: Sabbath mode

#69

Post by ams6110 »

wolfgke wrote: post #61
StavrosK wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same can be applied to everything, so God wants there to be sin. If God wanting sin to exist means that sin is fine, why are the loopholes necessary? Just sin. If God wanting sin to exist doesn't mean that sin is fine, then loopholes may also not be fine, even though they exist.

Couldn't it be, that God wants sin to exist, so that he can punish sinful people (come on, it's probably lots of fun for him ;-) )?

Or because, if it's not a matter of free will, faith and worship is meaningless.

Re: Sabbath mode

#70

Post by driverdan »

krebby wrote: post #33

This app[0] made the rounds last year and caused a bit of a stir: it keeps your android phone's battery at a constant state, prevents the screen from turning off, and flips the screen orientation, all of which from a disconnected interpretation of halacha should be permissible. Problem is, any touch to the screen completes a circuit (one of the prohibited categories of work) so the whole thing is a bit ridiculous any…

All of this stuff is ridiculous.
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