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New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

blog.caranddriver.com

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Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#191

Post by zanny »

cgriswald wrote: post #190
damon_c wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So obvious right? Well, we already have laws that make the possession of heroin illegal. They are broken all the time. With regards to the original point about silly laws that prevent us from spending our money and free time in ways that don't harm others, if person A is walking down the street and person B illegally uses heroin on the same street, person A is not likely to be harmed. You can't really say the same ab…

You have established that person B is not going to follow the law in any case. So if there is a law in place preventing person B from possessing a machine gun, person B is still going to acquire a machine gun and use it illegally and person A is still harmed. You haven't solved the problem by moving the solution further up the chain, but you have prevented responsible, law-abiding folks from acquiring a machine gun.…

I'm always in favor of the first amendment, but this is one context where outlawing the firearms does make a difference. There is a significant lower penetration of firearms in Europe period since almost every European country bans possession.

That does not mean that someone who really wants a machine gun cannot get one - but that it takes a lot more effort to get one. Effort that many deranged and unstable people are not willing or able to dedicate the effort to see to fruition. Even in the age of anonymous online exchanges gun import rates are puny compared to firearm availability in the US.

I think it is sound psychology to believe if you make it really hard to get something that an irrational actor will be less likely to pursue destructive behavior. The difference between firearms and drugs is that drug users are recurrent customers and can form an underground economy, the sociopath with a machine gun is often a one time shopper. Seems more economics than anything else as to why it is more infeasible to maintain a firearms black market at scale comparable to the drug market, regardless of ethics.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#192

Post by mikeash »

bnejad wrote: post #187
mikeash wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It's an existence proof that there is a better way, and demonstrates that dealers are blocking our ability to access that better way. Not long ago, one could have argued that the dealership model was the best you could do. Now it's impossible to argue that, since the best car-buying experience out there doesn't involve dealers.

Thanks for the downvote I guess? I said it was a moot point because you said just go buy a Tesla! Which most people can't afford or want to spend on a car. I'm not in love with the dealership model but its not a choice for 99% of buyers.

I don't know why people always assume the person who replied is also the person who downvoted. There are probably a couple thousand people with downvote privileges who've visited this thread. Even ignoring the bit where I can't downvote you, the odds that it's the person replying are small.

I didn't say just go buy a Tesla. I said that Tesla is the best way to buy a car. I didn't say it was an option for everybody, and "the best way" doesn't require it to be.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#193

Post by logn »

bko wrote: post #18

This is great news. People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. This is especially true since purchasing a car is a large purchase with information asymmetry (although new resources have made this less true). It's especially appalling how dealerships often discriminate on race and gender [0] I am disappointed that this move only applies to zero-emission vehicles but h…

> future legislation undoing the protection granted to dealerships

Franchises were purchased with the understanding that they wouldn't compete with manufacturers. I think the correct law would be to grandfather the old manufacturers in but let new ones sell direct. I guess a zero-emissions exception makes sense to eventually phase out dealerships and immediately allow Tesla.

Also I'm no so anti-dealership. It's not the easiest business and most of them have low margins.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#194

Post by ericd »

maratd wrote: post #99
andrewtbham wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because the dealership's concern is not Tesla, whom they consider a niche player. Their concern is their manufacturers GM, Toyota, Ford will set up their own stores and compete with and undercut them. The dealerships have poured a lot of resources into their dealerships over the years and it is an anti-trust issue for them to compete directly with the much more powerfule manufacturers.

If they can't compete, that means they're not providing sufficient value. What value would I, as a consumer, enjoy by doing business with a local dealer rather than the manufacturer? I don't think the fear here is that they would "undercut them". I would do business directly with Ford, Toyota, etc. even if the price were the same. That's what they're afraid of.

My understanding is that these laws were put into place so that the manufacturers couldn't have it both ways - they couldn't enjoy the low startup-capital requirements of the franchise model, and then after using the franchisees to grow and scout out the best spots, cherrypick the most lucrative spots for manufacturer owned dealerships, driving out the independent dealerships by using their lower end-to-end costs. Because the franchisees are usually completely at the mercy of their chosen brand.

The perversion of the law is that Tesla has never had franchisees, and they're still being blocked by the laws in many states, contrary to the original intention.

I hate buying from dealers as much as anyone, but the law as I understand it makes some sense. I'm sure it varies from state to state and doesn't make sense in some.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#195

Post by nemanja »

vtbassmatt wrote: post #182
nemanja wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are buying a new run of the mill car and are not picky about colors/options, you are basically buying a commodity - every new car of the given make and model is just like the next. If you also happen to live in the U.S. near a metro area, chances are that there are a ton of dealerships nearby willing to compete to get their high-value inventory off the lot. You can turn the tables around quite easily and stres…

This is how I've bought my last two cars and I'm generally a huge fan. One question for you, though: Why do you exclude tax, title, and tags? My understanding was that "out the door" price included everything required to get the vehicle on the road. Especially tax - can a dealer even legally sell a car without collecting sales/excise tax?

As strange as it may sound - I ask them to exclude all taxes and fees to reduce variability and have more of an apples to apples comparison. Taxes & fees are well defined, but in my experience, dealers try to sneak in a decent "service fee" in there. One guy tried to sneak in as much as ~$600 I think, which I found amusing. It just helps to reduce noise and focus on a single number; they'll do all the DMV work for you for free.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#196

Post by ScottBurson »

AtmaScout wrote: post #174
bnejad wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way to buy cars is option out exactly what you want and get the invoice price. Personally I've used carsdirect. Now with invoice price in mind, send emails to all dealers in your area. Simply explain you want X car @ X price and that you are emailing many dealers and will move forward with the dealer that has the best deal. Its important that you compare cars across dealers by the difference from invoice pri…

As someone who is likely to need a car soon, thanks so much for posting this. I've heard others state that the trade in needs to be separate.

The recommendation I've heard is not just to keep the trade-in separate, but to take it to at least three dealers and take the highest quote. (I haven't tried this myself.)

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#197

Post by maratd »

ericd wrote: post #194
maratd wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can't compete, that means they're not providing sufficient value. What value would I, as a consumer, enjoy by doing business with a local dealer rather than the manufacturer? I don't think the fear here is that they would "undercut them". I would do business directly with Ford, Toyota, etc. even if the price were the same. That's what they're afraid of.

My understanding is that these laws were put into place so that the manufacturers couldn't have it both ways - they couldn't enjoy the low startup-capital requirements of the franchise model, and then after using the franchisees to grow and scout out the best spots, cherrypick the most lucrative spots for manufacturer owned dealerships, driving out the independent dealerships by using their lower end-to-end costs. Be…

> and then after using the franchisees to grow and scout out the best spots, cherrypick the most lucrative spots for manufacturer owned dealerships

This is easily resolved on the contract level. Knowing this, nobody with half a brain would start a franchise unless the parent company guaranteed the territory. That's how it works in virtually every other franchising market.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#198

Post by tw04 »

It's definitely a win for the people but it's sad the only reason this happened is Christie's advisor told him his presidential bid was dead in the water without it. This guy is a grade-A crook of the worst kind. I don't know that I've ever seen a bigger fraud.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#199

Post by ams6110 »

bnejad wrote: post #136
kbenson wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is great news. It is! > People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. I doubt many people forget that. Car salesmen have some of the worst reputations of any profession in the US. Purchasing a car can be nerve-wracking. The research I felt compelled to do beforehand felt like I was preparing myself for battle, because I knew the incentives were diametrically oppos…

The best way to buy cars is option out exactly what you want and get the invoice price. Personally I've used carsdirect. Now with invoice price in mind, send emails to all dealers in your area. Simply explain you want X car @ X price and that you are emailing many dealers and will move forward with the dealer that has the best deal. Its important that you compare cars across dealers by the difference from invoice pri…

Really the best thing to do is buy a used car from a private seller. You'll save the bulk of the depreciation which happens in the first couple of years. A contemporary used car that's two or three years or even 5 years old is still going to be very reliable and have a lot of life left. Insurance and probably registration will be much cheaper as well. I own three cars, the newest is is a 2004 and they are all extremely dependable.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#200

Post by ams6110 »

nemanja wrote: post #134
kbenson wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is great news. It is! > People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. I doubt many people forget that. Car salesmen have some of the worst reputations of any profession in the US. Purchasing a car can be nerve-wracking. The research I felt compelled to do beforehand felt like I was preparing myself for battle, because I knew the incentives were diametrically oppos…

If you are buying a new run of the mill car and are not picky about colors/options, you are basically buying a commodity - every new car of the given make and model is just like the next. If you also happen to live in the U.S. near a metro area, chances are that there are a ton of dealerships nearby willing to compete to get their high-value inventory off the lot. You can turn the tables around quite easily and stres…

"out the door" typically means bottom line... including all taxes, fees, etc.
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