New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales • Hacker News Board

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#131

Post by rifung » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 5:58 PM UTC

woobar wrote: post #115

jaxbot wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, this could be an incentive to purchase zero-emission vehicles instead of the alternatives, as the buying experience would be theoretically much better than that of going to a traditional dealer.

I am not sure why the experience would be better. You always have the option of paying asking price to the traditional dealer. For some reason people that don't like to negotiate don't want to pay sticker price either.

Even if you do pay the sticker price, you might also be trading your car in, in which case you still have to negotiate how much they will pay you for your car.

Not only that but the sticker prices are usually artificially high since they are expecting negotiation with high prices for random add-ons like paint protection or other things nobody asked for.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#132

Post by kbenson » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 6:04 PM UTC

sbochins wrote: post #117

kbenson wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is great news. It is! > People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. I doubt many people forget that. Car salesmen have some of the worst reputations of any profession in the US. Purchasing a car can be nerve-wracking. The research I felt compelled to do beforehand felt like I was preparing myself for battle, because I knew the incentives were diametrically oppos…

I haven't really run into this issue myself. Maybe I'm younger than others, but the two cars I've purchased from dealerships have been done mostly online. The only part that could be nerve-wracking is turning down all the up-selling when finalizing the purchase (warranty for wheels, dents, etc).

If you are trading in a car, it adds quite a bit to the complexity. It adds another level of where they can move numbers around to make it look like you're getting a better deal than you are. It goes from being just about the cost of the car and APR, to also including the amount you are getting for your trade-in. It's very easy for them to lower some portions of the equation while making up for it in other places, and they are well versed in how to do this as they do it every day.

Recently I've had both an extremely bad and an okay experience at car dealerships. In one case, the salesman was so pushy as to repeatedly argue with my as to my decision to not buy a car that day, even when I was up front in my first contact with him saying I was looking that day, not buying, and would be back in a day or two after I'd done my own research on what they presented to me. I left not just angry, but infuriated. A few weeks later I bought a different make of car at a different dealership, and the experience was fairly smooth. Even so, there's a lingering feeling that I may not have paid enough attention and they may have changed the deal slightly on one portion of the deal while I was busy focusing on another part. I have so little trust of that industry at this point that I find it nearly impossible to trust any good experience.

I understand that there shouldn't be an expectation that I will automatically get the best deal just by showing up, but there's so much purposeful obfuscation and complexity in the process that it's hard not to walk away confused and angry (even if it takes a while to settle in).

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#133

Post by brianstorms » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 6:11 PM UTC

Great news yes, but there are other states that are still big problems.

Among them, one that the media appears to not even know about: New Mexico (maybe they don't realize it's a state).

In NM, the NMADA (New Mexico Automobile Dealers Association) has basically crafted the laws such that no manufacturer can have a single store OR service center anywhere in the state. All have to be franchises. Because, you know, we have to protect the dealer franchises, otherwise we might have better consumer choice and better consumer experiences and that would be a nightmare.

If one owns a Tesla in New Mexico, and ever needs service, a Ranger has to drive down from Denver. If they're available. If the weather cooperates.

Range anxiety? Meh. RANGER anxiety is a huge problem.

Imagine finding out you could not buy an iPhone or even find a Genius Bar in the State of New Mexico because the franchises selling other mobile phones had bought the legislature and banned iPhone from the state. That's the situation with Tesla. And nobody knows about it, and nobody seems to be doing a damn thing about it.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#134

Post by nemanja » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 6:11 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #67

bko wrote: post #18

This is great news. People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. This is especially true since purchasing a car is a large purchase with information asymmetry (although new resources have made this less true). It's especially appalling how dealerships often discriminate on race and gender [0] I am disappointed that this move only applies to zero-emission vehicles but h…

>This is great news. It is! > People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. I doubt many people forget that. Car salesmen have some of the worst reputations of any profession in the US. Purchasing a car can be nerve-wracking. The research I felt compelled to do beforehand felt like I was preparing myself for battle, because I knew the incentives were diametrically oppos…

If you are buying a new run of the mill car and are not picky about colors/options, you are basically buying a commodity - every new car of the given make and model is just like the next. If you also happen to live in the U.S. near a metro area, chances are that there are a ton of dealerships nearby willing to compete to get their high-value inventory off the lot.

You can turn the tables around quite easily and stress free (and have some fun in the process). Here is a car-shopping tactic I learned in a negotiation class some four years ago, used when shopping for a new car a few months later, and got a significant discount to the original ask. It really works well.

Shop towards the quarter-end. If you can help it, shop as close to the quarter-end as you can. If it's raining - even better. It's incredible what sales guys will do to get one more car out of the lot before quarter-end on a rainy day with no one in the showroom.

Get Consumer Reports Wholesale Price report. This gives you a good approximation for what dealer pays to get the car.

Compile a list of dealerships in 20-50 mile radius. For some brands you can even see their inventory online, which is fantastic.

Call dealers one by one. Be very professional, polite and don’t get emotional. Here is the script -

- I need to buy a new car. I am paying cash and can buy today.

- I am looking for $Make and $Model in $Color and I see you have $N cars like that on the lot. I've checked the Consumer Reports Wholesale Price which lists this vehicle at $X. The additional cost for $Options is $Y, which makes the total cost to dealer to $Z.

- Please call me back and tell me the best price you can offer out the door [1]. Do not include taxes, title, or tags which I will handle on my own.

As you get quotes from the dealers, thank them for their time and inform them of the lowest quote you currently have. They will sure call you back. Be prepared that some dealers will get really pissed and emotional, but just remain professional and polite. There is really no need to lie or waste anyone's time, the process works itself out beautifully. You’ll get a great deal before you even step foot in the dealership.

If you are leasing or financing, it doesn't work as smoothly (more levers to pull), but it is doable. I also don't think it would work as well for high-end brands with fewer dealers around.

[1] This is part of car dealer lingo and for some reason it resonates really well.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#135

Post by beachstartup » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 6:21 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #89

jaxbot wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, this could be an incentive to purchase zero-emission vehicles instead of the alternatives, as the buying experience would be theoretically much better than that of going to a traditional dealer.

Yes. It's like visiting the websites of two competing software vendors. One has a plain-as-day pricing table with a $100 / month plan and a big blue "Buy now" button. The other company's Pricing page just reads: "Call us for a quote". Given the choice, who would ever go with the company that makes you talk to an enterprise salesman? Somehow car dealers in the U.S. have managed to enshrine this sleazy sales model into…

okay, this old trope again. anyone who has a $100/month plan has it on their website. it's 2015, saas is a thing now.

nobody is going to make you call them for $100/month. ~$3k/month or ~$10k lump sum is roughly the threshold for enterprise sales that require you to talk to someone.

they do this because anyone who pays anything less than that for an enterprise service or product is going to be a demanding, unreasonable, cheapskate, entitled, caustic asshole because they're not used to spending large amounts and the money is probably coming out of their pocket (small business or soho customer). nobody on earth wants to deal with that kind of customer.

the phone call is designed to filter people out who get annoyed at needing to talk to someone. if you don't want to talk to anyone, you don't want to spend real money, because people who spend real money want to talk to real someones, usually multiple someones, the more someones the better. nobody wants to deal with the 'in between' customer who is too big for their consumer britches but won't step up to spend money for a real solution where real people on the other end of the line give a shit about their problems.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#136

Post by bnejad » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 6:23 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #67

bko wrote: post #18

This is great news. People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. This is especially true since purchasing a car is a large purchase with information asymmetry (although new resources have made this less true). It's especially appalling how dealerships often discriminate on race and gender [0] I am disappointed that this move only applies to zero-emission vehicles but h…

>This is great news. It is! > People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. I doubt many people forget that. Car salesmen have some of the worst reputations of any profession in the US. Purchasing a car can be nerve-wracking. The research I felt compelled to do beforehand felt like I was preparing myself for battle, because I knew the incentives were diametrically oppos…

The best way to buy cars is option out exactly what you want and get the invoice price. Personally I've used carsdirect.

Now with invoice price in mind, send emails to all dealers in your area. Simply explain you want X car @ X price and that you are emailing many dealers and will move forward with the dealer that has the best deal. Its important that you compare cars across dealers by the difference from invoice price as small options will change the price of the car slightly.

As you get quotes, you can forward those to other dealers if they have the specific color you want, etc.

Once you lock in a price, take care of financing through your local credit union. Show up to dealer, decline all warranties/addons, sign the papers making sure price is the same you agree, and off you go.

Just did this about a month ago and it worked out great. Remember to calculate exactly how much DMV fees will be(usually around 2-3 hundred dollars) which will likely be on top of the price you negotiated unless you specify otherwise.

Don't tell them you have a trade in until you show up at the dealer to buy. Then you can negotiate the trade in value without them trying to move numbers around with the car price.

I like this approach because there is zero advantage to negotiating the car price in person. Via email you can take your time to research and also field many more offers and quotes than you would ever be able to if you visited each dealer physically.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#137

Post by woobar » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 6:26 PM UTC

rifung wrote: post #131

woobar wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why the experience would be better. You always have the option of paying asking price to the traditional dealer. For some reason people that don't like to negotiate don't want to pay sticker price either.

Even if you do pay the sticker price, you might also be trading your car in, in which case you still have to negotiate how much they will pay you for your car. Not only that but the sticker prices are usually artificially high since they are expecting negotiation with high prices for random add-ons like paint protection or other things nobody asked for.

1. If you trade your old car to Tesla, you still have to negotiate it's price.

2. I am not sure how is your opinion about price is related to the experience at the dealership. Sticker prices for all cars are available online, and you can make a decision if the car worth that price well in advance. Once you make that decision nothing is stopping you from having a great car buying experience.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#138

Post by 15155 » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 6:32 PM UTC

bnejad wrote: post #136

kbenson wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is great news. It is! > People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. I doubt many people forget that. Car salesmen have some of the worst reputations of any profession in the US. Purchasing a car can be nerve-wracking. The research I felt compelled to do beforehand felt like I was preparing myself for battle, because I knew the incentives were diametrically oppos…

The best way to buy cars is option out exactly what you want and get the invoice price. Personally I've used carsdirect. Now with invoice price in mind, send emails to all dealers in your area. Simply explain you want X car @ X price and that you are emailing many dealers and will move forward with the dealer that has the best deal. Its important that you compare cars across dealers by the difference from invoice pri…

Or just use Costco Auto, and get invoice, sub a hundred or a few hundred (depending on mfg).

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#139

Post by baddox » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 6:34 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #67

bko wrote: post #18

This is great news. People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. This is especially true since purchasing a car is a large purchase with information asymmetry (although new resources have made this less true). It's especially appalling how dealerships often discriminate on race and gender [0] I am disappointed that this move only applies to zero-emission vehicles but h…

>This is great news. It is! > People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. I doubt many people forget that. Car salesmen have some of the worst reputations of any profession in the US. Purchasing a car can be nerve-wracking. The research I felt compelled to do beforehand felt like I was preparing myself for battle, because I knew the incentives were diametrically oppos…

I doubt think people forget it, but I do think many people actually consider protectionism a good thing (not "abuse"), and many more people either haven't ever learned or thought about these policies. The negative stereotypes of car salesmen doesn't require people to know the history of the political struggle between automobile manufacturers and dealers.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#140

Post by pcurve » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 6:36 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #99

andrewtbham wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because the dealership's concern is not Tesla, whom they consider a niche player. Their concern is their manufacturers GM, Toyota, Ford will set up their own stores and compete with and undercut them. The dealerships have poured a lot of resources into their dealerships over the years and it is an anti-trust issue for them to compete directly with the much more powerfule manufacturers.

If they can't compete, that means they're not providing sufficient value. What value would I, as a consumer, enjoy by doing business with a local dealer rather than the manufacturer? I don't think the fear here is that they would "undercut them". I would do business directly with Ford, Toyota, etc. even if the price were the same. That's what they're afraid of.

exactly. You don't see LG, Samsung, GE Appliances, Kenmore anxious to setup their own retail fronts because retail buying experience and cost structure of that model make financial sense for everybody involved.

The current franchise model serves dealers well, but it really shortchanges customers, to the point that I'd even pay a bit more to buy my car from company directly.