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Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

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Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#101

Post by ajuc »

WildUtah wrote: post #31
themartorana wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like at some point in time, entrapment was frowned upon... Unfortunately it's this behavior that reinforces - not helps fix - the often maligned urban/minority fear of ever helping the police in any way ever. Does the entire neighborhood know who committed crimes X? Yes. Will anyone ever talk to the police? Na.

"it's this behavior that reinforces" It's a mild reenforcement but the root reason to fear and not cooperate with the police is the same as ever. When most police resources in the USA are focused on drug enforcement and most Americans have committed federal felonies they don't think they should be incarcerated for and most underclass young men are committing them routinely, you can't expect crime ridden communities t…

If most of population performs crimes routinely and don't think it's a crime - it's probably because your law is stupid.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#102

Post by hueving »

skrebbel wrote: post #79

I'm not American and I have a question. Everybody in this thread repeats to "never talk to law enforcement without your lawyer present". I don't have a lawyer. I don't know a lawyer. I've hardly ever even talked to a lawyer. If I were in the USA and I'd get picked up for questioning, I wouldn't know who to call. Does every American "have a lawyer"? Do you know their phone number by heart? Is having a lawyer like havi…

No, most people I know don't have an actual lawyer they know already. "don't talk without your lawyer" means to get a lawyer representing you before you talk. It isn't meant to imply that you must have one to begin with.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#103

Post by skrebbel »

hueving wrote: post #102
skrebbel wrote: post #79

I'm not American and I have a question. Everybody in this thread repeats to "never talk to law enforcement without your lawyer present". I don't have a lawyer. I don't know a lawyer. I've hardly ever even talked to a lawyer. If I were in the USA and I'd get picked up for questioning, I wouldn't know who to call. Does every American "have a lawyer"? Do you know their phone number by heart? Is having a lawyer like havi…

No, most people I know don't have an actual lawyer they know already. "don't talk without your lawyer" means to get a lawyer representing you before you talk. It isn't meant to imply that you must have one to begin with.

So how do you google for an appropriate lawyer when in custody and you only get one phone call? Not cynical, I really wonder. I guess the exact same problem exists where I live (the Netherlands).

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#104

Post by skrebbel »

techstrategist wrote: post #82
skrebbel wrote: post #79

I'm not American and I have a question. Everybody in this thread repeats to "never talk to law enforcement without your lawyer present". I don't have a lawyer. I don't know a lawyer. I've hardly ever even talked to a lawyer. If I were in the USA and I'd get picked up for questioning, I wouldn't know who to call. Does every American "have a lawyer"? Do you know their phone number by heart? Is having a lawyer like havi…

No, I think that most Americans don't have a lawyer on call. The typical advice I have heard is to do a little research on lawyers in your city, and have a phone number of a reputable lawyer (or a few) in your wallet in case of a potentially severe legal situation. When you call them and establish a relationship where you are paying for their services they become "your lawyer". (this is not advice, I'm not a lawyer,…

> (this is not advice, I'm not a lawyer, etc)

Related: will people sue you if you don't include that disclaimer?

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#106

Post by dghf »

ptaipale wrote: post #96
dzdt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crazy stat : city of Ferguson has outstanding arrest warrants on more than half of its citizens. This is an insane police state! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-robinson/the-shocking-f...

That sounds like a red herring. Without reading the story further than the first paragraph, I guess the reality is more like this: Police in city of Ferguson knows of 16 000 arrest warrants for people from all over the USA, plus a number of foreigners, and Ferguson has 21 000 residents. Some smaller city may have just 210 residents, and its police force may (theoretically) also know of the same 16 000 arrest warrants…

If you do read the story further, and the NBC story it links to, you'll see that these 16 000 arrest warrants were issued by the Ferguson Municipal Court; they're not merely warrants known to Ferguson police but originating elsewhere.

> It tells us that people are comparing numbers in a way that does not make sense.

From the HuffPo article:

"To give some context as to how truly extreme this is, a comparison may be useful. In 2014, the Boston Municipal Court System, for a city of 645,000 people, issued about 2,300 criminal warrants. The Ferguson Municipal Court issued 9,000, for a population 1/30th the size of Boston's."

Seems like a reasonable comparison to me.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#107

Post by ptaipale »

snowwrestler wrote: post #46
mikeash wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your guilt doesn't matter. You can still incriminate yourself even if you have committed no crime. It sounds like grandparent didn't go to jail, so even though he calls it a "bad tactic" it seems to have worked out fine. The people who actually know this stuff, i.e. lawyers and cops, all universally advise people not to talk to the police without counsel. Never have I seen one add the qualifier "but it's fine if you'…

You witness a mugging. You get a good look at the person who did it. A cop comes up to you and says "did you see what happened?" What's the right thing to do here? Shut up and demand a lawyer before you'll answer any questions? You hear about a shooting in your neighborhood on the radio. Walking to the subway, you see a person with a gun run down an alley. At the subway station a cop asks you if you've seen anything…

When we're this deep into a comment chain, you just need to wait for a few minutes before the "Reply" button appears. Design in HN to slow down flame wars, I suppose.

I think you make good points. People say things like "don't ever talk to a police without lawyer", because they want to make a political point.

I am not American, and not resident in the US, but I do not believe that a total "I don't talk to police without lawyer, ever" is really wise. Either in US or elsewhere - you have to understand your surroundings.

My latest interaction with an American police officer was on a business trip on September 12, 2001. Independent of the bad TV shows the previous day, I was driving to the local office where I was visiting. Boss from Europe called me on my cell phone. I didn't think it was a good idea to speak on the phone while driving, so I took the exit from highway and stopped on the curb of a smaller road. After talking for a moment, I noticed a police car stopped next to me. I rolled down the window, and the police asked me why I stopped there. I told him, to speak on the phone. He told me to move over because I would be blocking other traffic. I hadn't noticed it but he was right. I said "sorry, I didn't notice, I'll get moving", put the phone away and got moving. End of story.

Instead of telling him "Speaking on the phone", should I have responded with "No comment, I want my lawyer"? That would have been absurd, and probably a very good reason for this officer to get suspicious of me, possibly starting to check my papers - which I'm sure he's the right to do - and possibly ticket me for simply breaking the traffic law and then being a prick about it.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#108

Post by gadders »

skrebbel wrote: post #103
hueving wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, most people I know don't have an actual lawyer they know already. "don't talk without your lawyer" means to get a lawyer representing you before you talk. It isn't meant to imply that you must have one to begin with.

So how do you google for an appropriate lawyer when in custody and you only get one phone call? Not cynical, I really wonder. I guess the exact same problem exists where I live (the Netherlands).

I would imagine they have duty lawyers on call or Public Defenders or something.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#109

Post by dvirsky »

tempestn wrote: post #67
serve_yay wrote: post #14

The only time I ever did this, it was a routine traffic stop and I was with my wife and my parents. The cop was asking me a bunch of questions about why I was driving so fast, and I just played it off like I didn't understand, just trying to say as little as possible. It was a bad tactic - it raised suspicion and I later learned that my mother thought I was actually holding drugs or something because I was being evas…

This is a good point though. What do you folks suggest for the standard traffic stop, along the lines of, "Sir, do you know how fast you were going?" Presumably both "yes" and "no" would be bad. (The former is obvious, and the latter could mean you're not paying sufficient attention, etc.) So, do you just stare at them in silence? Do you say something like, "I'd rather not answer," which while accurate, sure sounds l…

How can saying "Yes, I know" get you into bigger trouble than a speeding ticket? At best you can try to lie and state a legal speed if you were going in a borderline speed.

Anyway, it could be different in the US (I'm from Israel, where police is brutal only if you're Palestinian or holding a political rally. Otherwise they're mostly useless). I only got pulled once, for not coming to a complete stop on a stop sign (I slowed down to almost a complete stop). I just politely said "yeah officer, I did slow down, but it's my bad, sorry". The reaction was "oh well, I see you don't have any prior traffic violations, I'm going to let this one slide, have a nice day".

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