One thing that is very important to know about this behavior, is that while it works in the US in your favor, it will not in other states of the world. A good example is Austria where refusing a statement generally works heavily against you.
Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)
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Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)
#72> The lesson — other than that criminal justice often has little to do with actual justice — is this: for God's sake shut up . Law enforcement agents seeking to interview you are not your friends. You cannot count on "just clearing this one thing up." Demand to talk to a lawyer before talking to the cops. Every time. This is a very good reminder, and everything he says is both important and true. Unfortunately, it's…
>LEOs - especially Feds - will do everything they can to intimidate you, make you uncomfortable, lower your confidence, etc. It's literally their job to make people like you make mistakes. It sucks, but that's what you're up against.
I don't know why we tolerate that. Imagine if doctors used such techniques to get people to participate in medical trials. We'd reject any claim that the subjects gave consent.
Or imagine if any interested party used those techniques to get you to do something that every competent professional would advise against? Again, not good enough to be consent.
But if law enforcement does the same thing? "Just good ol fashioned police work".
Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)
#73The only time I ever did this, it was a routine traffic stop and I was with my wife and my parents. The cop was asking me a bunch of questions about why I was driving so fast, and I just played it off like I didn't understand, just trying to say as little as possible. It was a bad tactic - it raised suspicion and I later learned that my mother thought I was actually holding drugs or something because I was being evas…
This is a good point though. What do you folks suggest for the standard traffic stop, along the lines of, "Sir, do you know how fast you were going?" Presumably both "yes" and "no" would be bad. (The former is obvious, and the latter could mean you're not paying sufficient attention, etc.) So, do you just stare at them in silence? Do you say something like, "I'd rather not answer," which while accurate, sure sounds l…
> "Sir, do you know how fast you were going?"
The only responses you should use in such situations are:
'No comment'
'Am I free to go?'
Plus the statutory minimum ( name, address, DoB according to your local legislation ).
Psychologically it is very, very difficult. One way to try to handle it is to pretend you're responding to Emacs Eliza, which will always try to turn your words back onto you.
Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)
#74The only time I ever did this, it was a routine traffic stop and I was with my wife and my parents. The cop was asking me a bunch of questions about why I was driving so fast, and I just played it off like I didn't understand, just trying to say as little as possible. It was a bad tactic - it raised suspicion and I later learned that my mother thought I was actually holding drugs or something because I was being evas…
This is a good point though. What do you folks suggest for the standard traffic stop, along the lines of, "Sir, do you know how fast you were going?" Presumably both "yes" and "no" would be bad. (The former is obvious, and the latter could mean you're not paying sufficient attention, etc.) So, do you just stare at them in silence? Do you say something like, "I'd rather not answer," which while accurate, sure sounds l…
> "Sir, do you know how fast you were going?"
The proper answer is - "No, because I know exactly where I am"
Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like at some point in time, entrapment was frowned upon... Unfortunately it's this behavior that reinforces - not helps fix - the often maligned urban/minority fear of ever helping the police in any way ever. Does the entire neighborhood know who committed crimes X? Yes. Will anyone ever talk to the police? Na.
If you read the ferguson report -- and I can't do it justice -- the police were systematically used to assault black people, and use them as a cash source to fund local government. Meanwhile, white people skated on the same charges. I can't do the report justice, but it's utterly appalling. And while white people might not know what is going on, trust me, black people damn sure do. To say the least, this does not imp…
Crazy stat : city of Ferguson has outstanding arrest warrants on more than half of its citizens. This is an insane police state!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-robinson/the-shocking-f...
Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)
#76The general case here is: don't lie to federal agents. The easiest way to do that is to stay silent and demand a lawyer. But understand: if you're on the periphery of an investigation, you're running a chance of raising a red flag. It's well within your rights, and ultimately you can't incriminate yourself by being silent. But you could substantially add delay, frustration, and lawyer costs to the whole experience. A…
"If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged." — Cardinal Richelieu
This quote is often misattributed. Actually by Laubardemont.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Martin_de_Laubardemont (no English wikipedia page). He's well known for the Loudun withcraft trials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudun_possessions)
Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because the cops don't have the right to detain you without suspicion of you having committed a crime, and (at least historically), invoking the fifth is not evidence of guilt.
In that case, the cop is already detaining you on suspicion of wrongdoing, and they already have significant discretion in what to look at. Sure, when it gets to trial, "alright, maybe I wouldn't have bothered checking for weapons if he hadn't immediately invoked the fifth", and you get a gold plated legal victory. Or you could be on your way in ten minutes and avoid the charade.
The question of if the situation really is something where you could be "on your way in ten minutes" becomes a lot more complicated when you add in the risk of stuff like "parallel construction" and "follow someone until you find some excuse to pull them over".
When one part escalates the potential risk, defense against those risks must respond in kind. It would be really nice if law enforcement (and the government in general) decided to cultivate trust so we could reasonably assume a "traffic stop" really was about moving violations. Unfortunately, we seem to be moving rapidly away from that trust, making the hard-line approach a necessity.
Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)
#78Actually over the years, I've found that shutting my mouth would be helpful not only when talking to law enforcement. Not always so good at carrying that out though. Anyways, it reminds of the time I was arrested for smoking the forbidden devil vegetable. We were brought into the city court room to be indicted while we were waiting two suburban white teenagers were in from the bench getting chewed out by the judge, s…
I can't help but wonder if those kids would have gotten the same apparently-lenient/gracious treatment from the judge if they'd instead been POC teenagers from the inner city.
Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)
#79I'm not American and I have a question. Everybody in this thread repeats to "never talk to law enforcement without your lawyer present". I don't have a lawyer. I don't know a lawyer. I've hardly ever even talked to a lawyer. If I were in the USA and I'd get picked up for questioning, I wouldn't know who to call.
Does every American "have a lawyer"? Do you know their phone number by heart? Is having a lawyer like having a health insurance, in that you could do without but it'd be pretty stupid? Isn't that a suffocating thought? How do you deal with it?
Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)
#80I want to clarify the scope of this advice. If I've actually committed a crime and a cop is interrogating me about it, I should shut up and talk to my lawyer. (e.g. I robbed someone's house) In the other extreme, if someone's committed a crime against me, I should actively call the police to talk to them (e.g. someone robbed my house).
The majority of interactions with police fall somewhere between these two examples in terms of susceptibility. What determines when I should be talking to the cops and when I shouldn't?