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Analysis of DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture

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Re: Analysis of DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture

#51
post #20
post #12

If you guys are interested in this stuff, I highly recommend "The Red Queen" by Matt Ridley. http://amazon.com/Red-Queen-Evolution-Human-Nature/dp/006055...

This is a great passage from the Red Queen, that might explain what was happening at the time: In the ancient empire of the Incas, sex was a heavily regulated industry. The sun-king Atahualpa kept fifteen hundred women in each of many “houses of virgins” throughout his kingdom. They were selected for their beauty and were rarely chosen after the age of eight—to ensure their virginity. But they did not all remain virg…

If wealth keeps getting concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, coupled with the sexual liberation of women, perhaps we'll see something like this again. 1% of the men enjoying 99% of procreation.

Re: Analysis of DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture

#52
It sounds like a persistent theme through history is that a very few people at the top had a Lot of power, and most men and all women were oppressed.

Feminists, take note: men are not privileged. Just those who were privileged were men. The fight must be against the few at the top.

Re: Analysis of DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture

#53
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hunch that this ancient way of warfare is still the optimal way to destroy a culture and achieve total victory. Not that it's acceptable in any way, but imagine if the US had done this in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is heart-wrenching to think about, but I think it would have worked.

This is pretty much how Isis conducts their warfare.

Only against non-muslims, as far as I've gathered. Most of the muslim world (as far as I've gathered) isn't particularly religious, just very socially conservative. So IS isn't employing this tactic to its full advantage here. Nor is it clear how they could, because as long as you go through all the motions it's hard to check whether you really have all that much religious fervour.

Re: Analysis of DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture

#54
post #40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would love to know of other mammalian species that have such low reproductive rates compared to females. Some species of deer probably match it.

True! Then it seems that the early agrarian humans had more of a herd mentality or reproductive structure of winner take all. Do other apes or monkeys have similar breeding structures? Fascinating stuff.

Gorillas form harem-like groups, but they're not as large, 3 to 6 females per male (often the groups have multiple related males). Chimps have dominant males, but females can and often do have sex with other males in the group. Bonobos are just ridiculously promiscous :)

I just found a book called "Human Natures: Genes, Cultures, and the Human Prospect" which claims that southern elephant seals have harems of 48 females on average O_O - that's probably the record among mammals.

Re: Analysis of DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture

#55
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great passage from the Red Queen, that might explain what was happening at the time: In the ancient empire of the Incas, sex was a heavily regulated industry. The sun-king Atahualpa kept fifteen hundred women in each of many “houses of virgins” throughout his kingdom. They were selected for their beauty and were rarely chosen after the age of eight—to ensure their virginity. But they did not all remain virg…

If wealth keeps getting concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, coupled with the sexual liberation of women, perhaps we'll see something like this again. 1% of the men enjoying 99% of procreation.

Doubtful. Child support means that if wealth is used for procreation, it will diffuse.

Re: Analysis of DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture

#56
post #25

Not particularly surprising. In the ancient world, men were often killed in various ways (conflict, hunting accidents) or enslaved so the gender ratio was quite skewed. I mean, typical ancient warfare meant you attack a town, kill/enslave all the men and boys, rape all the women, and ensure your culture's dominance over them for the next generation or two...

And don't forget the death of women during childbirth. That would leave a father/child pair - I'm sure the fathers in that instance would not be voluntarily celibate afterwards.

Re: Analysis of DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture

#57
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great passage from the Red Queen, that might explain what was happening at the time: In the ancient empire of the Incas, sex was a heavily regulated industry. The sun-king Atahualpa kept fifteen hundred women in each of many “houses of virgins” throughout his kingdom. They were selected for their beauty and were rarely chosen after the age of eight—to ensure their virginity. But they did not all remain virg…

If wealth keeps getting concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, coupled with the sexual liberation of women, perhaps we'll see something like this again. 1% of the men enjoying 99% of procreation.

this theory doesn't make sense, because sexually liberated women are fucking/procreating with losers and deadbeats at just as high a rate or even higher than with wealthy guys. they are also divorcing their wealthy husbands and taking a boatload of cash for themselves.

in fact, a lot of seriously rich guys are sexually frustrated. modern society is not ancient incan feudalism, and it doesn't follow the same rules as 1950s western society either. it's unique.

Re: Analysis of DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture

#58

It sounds like a persistent theme through history is that a very few people at the top had a Lot of power, and most men and all women were oppressed. Feminists, take note: men are not privileged. Just those who were privileged were men. The fight must be against the few at the top.

There will be always a few at the top, hierarchies among humans will always exist due to natural differences.

Re: Analysis of DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture

#59
Sounds to me like slavery. The women slaves had babies, the male slaves were workers and soldiers.

In a way, it sort of sounds like a eusocial sort of society, like a bee colony (but with the male female roles reversed). One reproducing male, many reproducing females, many non-reproducing males.

Re: Analysis of DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture

#60

I've suspected as much would happen during the agricultural revolution, but I did not expect such a huge disparity. If the 51% male/female ratio did not change, then 16 out of 17 males must have either been killed, enslaved, or been left frustrated. This would imply a highly patriarchal society where the local king and his cronies are the only ones fed, and to whom you would sell your daughters to. The only other exp…

One other hypothesis I can think of is the advent of barbarian warfare. Many parts of the old testament details how brutal life was, where various tribes are constantly at war and conquering other tribes. Even several generations of warfare, where each village sacked involved killing the men and abducting the women, would filter out y-chromosomes to see such a large disparity.

This is the actual explanation. With one caveat... slavery.

Basically, agriculture allowed people to specialize. This included specializing in killing. (Soldiers). You would use these specialists to conquer other lands. Which, in turn, provided slave labor to increase production in agriculture and other sectors. So the conquered females would be used as "rewards" for the conquerors. And the conquered males would be used to increase production across the conquering society via slave labor.

So the explanation is pretty simple. In fact, the 17 to 1 figure is so low that I question whether they aren't missing something ??? Societies that developed later generally required enormous amounts of slave labor. That, coupled with the fact that there would have been an enormous amount of killing involved in taking the slaves in the first place, makes me wonder how the numbers turned out so evenhanded? I would have expected it to be an order of magnitude higher. But they did the study and have the data... so life must not have been quite as brutal as I thought it was.

I suppose it is possible that life was brutal... and less desirable females simply may not have been taken? This happened a lot in our own history. Slave auction records show that some female slaves in America sold for as much as 100 times the rate of a "regular" female slave. (And even more in some private trades we have records for). We can speculate on why that may have been... but I think it's safe to assume that in a less sophisticated time they may have simply dispensed with females and males who were in some way undesirable, or were not likely to survive the journey back.

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