Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#131

Post by guelo » Mon, Mar 16, 2015, 6:15 AM UTC

sheepmullet wrote: post #98

encoderer wrote: post #7

He bashes the "myth of the 10x" engineer. Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example. Anybody who has watched N0tch code on Twitch knows that there are certainly people who are far more productive coders than the average engineer. I have no idea if he's…

"Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example." It takes 6-8 years of intense training to become a doctor. This is after already doing well in college and passing a tough skills/general intelligence test. The bottom 70%+ who want to become doctors are simp…

You know what they call the guy that graduates last in his med school class? Doctor.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#132

Post by glogla » Mon, Mar 16, 2015, 6:15 AM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #52

Arwill wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What i commonly notice is if a developer starts solving the problem at its core, and then builds the interfaces around it, or he starts writing "utility" code, like writing code in hope that the problem will solve itself if enough helper code (or framework code) has been written for it. When i see a developer doing the latter, i know he will not be too productive, because he has no clear vision of the solution.

Perhaps if you have a poor definition of utility code. Sure if you spend all your time writing random string functions or a new web framework or whatever. But that's sorta tautological: writing useless code is useless and bad. I often find bottom up coding to be fantastic. I'll start with a general idea of what I want to do, then start writing low-level "helper" functions. Like "save image to blob storage", "perform…

I have heard the expression that wiring bottom-up is "building a DLS for your problem".

That would explain why we don't see a lot of it in the Java world and therefore why "traditional developers" think it's useless - first, creating DSL may need stronger language than Java to be practical, and second, most of the DSL is already done as parts of Spring or JEE.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#133

Post by MichaelGG » Mon, Mar 16, 2015, 6:20 AM UTC

sz4kerto wrote: post #86

MichaelGG wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear there's a 10x difference in, say, error rates between the best and worst doctors. In fact, I'm almost definitely sure that's a lower bound, given my experiences with doctors in third world countries. Barbaric, some of them still are. Depending how bad the worse doctors are, 10x from "average" might be reasonable. In software development, I think that 10x number is also a lower bound if…

10x difference between error rates? No, this is not the case. Well, it might be in some special situations, like a scammer and a specialist, but you'll wont find that in the case of GPs, for example. Obviously you should only compare doctors on the same field (N0tch would be quite unproductive if he suddenly had to work with COBOL, for example), and between those the difference is measured in percentages, not 1000 pe…

Are you taking into account doctors in shitty countries? I've personally seen people seriously harmed and killed due to what, in the US, would be viewed as criminal intent. Yet inside such a country, the cases were viewed as nothing notable.

And are you really saying that inside the US, there are no practitioners with an error of 1/1000 where another one has 10/1000? That seems awfully tight.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#134

Post by marcus_holmes » Mon, Mar 16, 2015, 6:34 AM UTC

inanutshellus wrote: post #108

marcus_holmes wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there are business out there who treat programmers "properly", but they're unfortunately the exception rather than the rule, and that's not going to change any time soon.

I push back when the business hands me implementation in requirements (e.g. "Make me a button that rings a bell 10 seconds after I click it" versus "I need to know when a query finishes; it usually takes 10 seconds." which leads to "holy CRAP, that query takes 10 seconds?! Lets solve that!"). The first few times I did it, it caused a bit of an uproar, but very quickly they came to realize that they got better quality…

I agree, and I've done the same, but I do find it ridiculous that we have to be the ones to fight the battle.

This is all known stuff, there's endless research and case studies showing that providing creative programmers with autonomy and authority over their environment creates massively better software results.

But the illusion of control is hard for some people to let go, I guess.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#135

Post by marcus_holmes » Mon, Mar 16, 2015, 6:38 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #105

marcus_holmes wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, except for one thing: Surgeons are briefed on the problem, the diagnosis, the patient's medical history, given all the information they need to know about the project. They are then locked in a small room with all the tools and assistants they need, and given complete and total authority and autonomy over the process and results. Because of that, surgeons are some of the most respected people in the…

>They are then locked in a small room with all the tools and assistants they need, and given complete and total authority and autonomy over the process and results. A surgeon of that level would be more analogous to a very senior programmer with management responsibilities. Said surgeon only got to that point after years of working very long hours with little autonomy. And surgeons only get that autonomy for a fracti…

yeah, it's not an entirely fair comparison.

But from my understanding of the health industry, the consultants are absolutely the top of the food chain despite their whinges about management. This is not true of even highly-paid consultant programmers (and highly-paid tech consultants are almost never allowed to waste their time actually programming).

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#136

Post by zamalek » Mon, Mar 16, 2015, 6:40 AM UTC

guelo wrote: post #131

sheepmullet wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example." It takes 6-8 years of intense training to become a doctor. This is after already doing well in college and passing a tough skills/general intelligence test. The bottom 70%+ who want to become doctors are simp…

You know what they call the guy that graduates last in his med school class? Doctor.

> You know what they call the guy that graduates last in his med school class?

A doctor who passed with at least 75%, so far as my local [third world] standards go.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#137

Post by Someone » Mon, Mar 16, 2015, 6:49 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #14

encoderer wrote: post #7

He bashes the "myth of the 10x" engineer. Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example. Anybody who has watched N0tch code on Twitch knows that there are certainly people who are far more productive coders than the average engineer. I have no idea if he's…

> There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example. Sure there are. Unlike programming where most of it is unique, and that stuff that's not is widely dismissed as "crud" (create update delete), with Dr's almost all of their work is routine. Except when it's not, and when you have difficult cases you most DEFINITELY have 10x Dr's. Have you never heard stories of patients going from Dr. to Dr. trying to f…

"Have you never heard stories of patients going from Dr. to Dr. trying to figure out what's wrong with them, until they find that one genius Dr. who finally figures it out?"

Part of that is throwing die after die until a six comes up. The die that gives a six need not have _anything_ to do with it.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#138

Post by zamalek » Mon, Mar 16, 2015, 6:52 AM UTC

andyjdavis wrote: post #74

smegel wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no idea if he's coding 10x faster It's a bad myth that "speed" has anything to do with the 10x or 100x programmer. The thing that sets great programmers apart is their ability to instinctively and intuitively design elegant and correct solutions to a given problem while introducing minimal bugs. A great programmer whose code will stand the test of time without needing a total rewrite 6 months later and witho…

>know how to minimize complexity I don't think this gets nearly enough praise when assessing people. I've worked at a few different software companies with a raft of different programmers and among those who were deemed "superstars" there were certainly a few who I wouldn't want to work with (or inherit code from) given the choice due to the hideously complex nature of their output. Despite their ability to produce m…

Interestingly I think that the propensity to create complex systems is a sign of inexperience (but aptitude nonetheless). I used to create the most hideously "enterprise" architectures in my projects that even I have problems grokking after years of not touching them. I've reached the stage of moderately complex and out of sheer love of the concept, actively work toward simpler solutions.

Ultimately a "10x hire" who overcomplicates things can probably be toned down through some mentoring.

I guess the "work smart, not hard" truism can be reworded to "solve smart, not complex" in this case.

> some poor sucker is going to have to maintain that mess.

Although complex is not the same thing as a mess, it merely might as well be.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#139

Post by nihonjon » Mon, Mar 16, 2015, 6:55 AM UTC

amagumori wrote: post #101

nemothekid wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its rather strange you would bring up Notch, as I wouldn't consider Notch-run Minecraft a marvel of engineering. I'd hate to be the guy who cleans up after him, and while Minecraft works (and it is a really great game), most people consider to be terribly built.[1] So yes, while Notch is a rather speedy engineer, I wouldn't consider the skills of an engineer based on how fast they code. Maintainability is an importan…

game devs like notch have made a conscious and canny decision to value actually making something over code quality. also, notch didn't build minecraft expecting it to be a runaway success. see, you are a programmer - you make code. notch is a game developer. he USES code to make THINGS. the things matter, not the code. the game developer ethic is "nothing matters but getting the game running." it's not that notch is…

Programmers I've worked with who valued refactoring code instead of building features have also been some of the most negative people I've met.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#140

Post by learc83 » Mon, Mar 16, 2015, 7:13 AM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #135

learc83 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They are then locked in a small room with all the tools and assistants they need, and given complete and total authority and autonomy over the process and results. A surgeon of that level would be more analogous to a very senior programmer with management responsibilities. Said surgeon only got to that point after years of working very long hours with little autonomy. And surgeons only get that autonomy for a fracti…

yeah, it's not an entirely fair comparison. But from my understanding of the health industry, the consultants are absolutely the top of the food chain despite their whinges about management. This is not true of even highly-paid consultant programmers (and highly-paid tech consultants are almost never allowed to waste their time actually programming).

>and highly-paid tech consultants are almost never allowed to waste their time actually programming

There are plenty of niche programming consultants that are highly paid to actually program--firmware reverse engineering, and cryptographic security specialists are 2 of them.

There was a whole thread a few years ago where tptacek argued that $400 an hour is reasonable for certain specialty programmers, which is more than all but the highest paid surgeons make.