Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

youtube.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 168 posts

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#91

Post by marcus_holmes »

cheese1756 wrote: post #88
marcus_holmes wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, except for one thing: Surgeons are briefed on the problem, the diagnosis, the patient's medical history, given all the information they need to know about the project. They are then locked in a small room with all the tools and assistants they need, and given complete and total authority and autonomy over the process and results. Because of that, surgeons are some of the most respected people in the…

I see your point. I'd argue that programmers who are treated that way have bad managers, though, rather than it being a function of programming as a profession. I've never dealt with a company that hasn't given me some autonomy, though, so I can't really comment on that perspective. A company can give programmers autonomy, or it can give them bits of information and treat them poorly. It could also do this for its sa…

Yeah, there are business out there who treat programmers "properly", but they're unfortunately the exception rather than the rule, and that's not going to change any time soon.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#92

Post by etherael »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #75
etherael wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programmers as a blue colar job ?

Not blue-collar because we wear blue collars or perform physical labour, but because programmers are not professionals - we're not architects, we're bricklayers. In the conventional business mindset programmers just implement a plan devised by someone else. Consequently we are fungible (easily replaced by cheaper alternatives), and a cost rather than an asset.

I'm much more familiar with "Here is this problem space that there's great rewards in addressing successfully, we don't actually know how to address that problem space, we can just see that it needs to be addressed because of (business indicators a-z). Can you help us address this problem space?" And then figuring out how to do that + implementing it (if it's actually possible at all).

Is this not programming?

Programmers are dripfed information on a "need-to-know" basis by managers who have no clue about the process involved (and therefore with no clue about what information is needed). They are then placed in an open area, interrupted regularly, have to justify the cost of any tools, are never given assistants, and have exactly zero authority or autonomy over the process or results. Because of that, programmers are some of the least respected people in their environment.

That sounds horrifying, how on earth are you ever expected to accomplish anything worthwhile in such an environment, and in the present ultra-competitive market, why would anyone tolerate being treated that way?

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#93

Post by nerfhammer »

_yosefk wrote: post #30
nerfhammer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's greed really - everyone wants to hire 10x engineers, but it's not like you're going to pay them 10x of course.

Well, if you pay 10x for 10x more productivity you don't gain much, do you?.. Can't blame 'em for not bothering to look for a rarity for no gain.

If it's profitable to hire a 1x engineer it should be profitable to hire a 10x engineer at 10x pay.

Suppose the earning/engineer multiplier is 4x: if you make 4x for each 1x engineer, you should make 40x from a 10x engineer.

And, currently the earnings/engineer multiplier in most well known bay area tech companies is enormous.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#94

Post by Dewie »

frozenport wrote: post #49
jldugger wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was online almost every hour of the week/day and he was always working. It's a lot easier to be a "10x engineer" when you work 2x-3x the hours everyone else.

Not many people can do that.

Not many people can work that much in raw hours, and be as productive for each of those hours as someone who works normally are during each business hour.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#95

Post by Dewie »

_yosefk wrote: post #30
nerfhammer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's greed really - everyone wants to hire 10x engineers, but it's not like you're going to pay them 10x of course.

Well, if you pay 10x for 10x more productivity you don't gain much, do you?.. Can't blame 'em for not bothering to look for a rarity for no gain.

Still sounds like a win to me. Think of The Mythical Man-Month.

Do you want a kitchen with 10 chefs and the coordination that demands, or a kitchen with 1 chef that is just as productive as the raw sum of the 10 chefs? Assuming that the productivity of each chef was tested in isolation.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#96

Post by [deleted] »

bcook wrote: post #50
sp332 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For an industry with a very high rate of depression, and disproportionately populated by demographics where suicide is the #2 leading cause of death, it's a very inappropriate joke. Source: Men http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/2011/LCOD_menallages2011.pdf and women http://www.cdc.gov/women/lcod/2011/WomenAll_2011.pdf

I have suffered from chronic depression for almost 20 years now, so I am sympathetic to your perspective. Most humor is "inappropriate" in my experience. So, inappropriateness seems VERY appropriate when attempting to be humorous... Hehe, go watch some stand-up by Louis CK, Richard Pryor, or George Carlin for example.

[deleted]

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#97

Post by sp332 »

throwawaymaroon wrote: post #67
sp332 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For an industry with a very high rate of depression, and disproportionately populated by demographics where suicide is the #2 leading cause of death, it's a very inappropriate joke. Source: Men http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/2011/LCOD_menallages2011.pdf and women http://www.cdc.gov/women/lcod/2011/WomenAll_2011.pdf

This is just a subjective feeling blending personal and second-hand experience, but it seems extremely unlikely to me that a joke in presentation context would drive someone over the edge. Being unable to joke about it, however, is stifling. The reaction to clamp down on the joke suggests that suicide is something normal people don't do.

I feel like it's making light of it, as if suicide weren't anything serious. When Louis CK jokes about, say, racism, he's not acting like racism isn't a big deal.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#98

Post by sheepmullet »

encoderer wrote: post #7

He bashes the "myth of the 10x" engineer. Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example. Anybody who has watched N0tch code on Twitch knows that there are certainly people who are far more productive coders than the average engineer. I have no idea if he's…

"Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example."

It takes 6-8 years of intense training to become a doctor. This is after already doing well in college and passing a tough skills/general intelligence test.

The bottom 70%+ who want to become doctors are simply not able to get through the system. If we got rid of the bottom 70% of developers we wouldn't be having these 10x conversations either.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#99

Post by platz »

nemothekid wrote: post #84
encoderer wrote: post #7

He bashes the "myth of the 10x" engineer. Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example. Anybody who has watched N0tch code on Twitch knows that there are certainly people who are far more productive coders than the average engineer. I have no idea if he's…

Its rather strange you would bring up Notch, as I wouldn't consider Notch-run Minecraft a marvel of engineering. I'd hate to be the guy who cleans up after him, and while Minecraft works (and it is a really great game), most people consider to be terribly built.[1] So yes, while Notch is a rather speedy engineer, I wouldn't consider the skills of an engineer based on how fast they code. Maintainability is an importan…

They sure picked some weak examples to pick on in that thread.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#100

Post by kranner »

balls187 wrote: post #54
frozenport wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not many people can do that.

Not many people choose to do that.

People can have other obligations (to family, to their own health, etc.) that preclude the choice.
Post reply on HN