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Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

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Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#101

Post by amagumori »

nemothekid wrote: post #84
encoderer wrote: post #7

He bashes the "myth of the 10x" engineer. Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example. Anybody who has watched N0tch code on Twitch knows that there are certainly people who are far more productive coders than the average engineer. I have no idea if he's…

Its rather strange you would bring up Notch, as I wouldn't consider Notch-run Minecraft a marvel of engineering. I'd hate to be the guy who cleans up after him, and while Minecraft works (and it is a really great game), most people consider to be terribly built.[1] So yes, while Notch is a rather speedy engineer, I wouldn't consider the skills of an engineer based on how fast they code. Maintainability is an importan…

game devs like notch have made a conscious and canny decision to value actually making something over code quality. also, notch didn't build minecraft expecting it to be a runaway success.

see, you are a programmer - you make code. notch is a game developer. he USES code to make THINGS. the things matter, not the code. the game developer ethic is "nothing matters but getting the game running." it's not that notch is a shoddy programmer at all, it's that he has different priorities than you.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#102

Post by csours »

Putting aside all the ad-hominem and everything-is-terrible, I think I learned a lot from following the references Tef makes in this talk.

Some references (sorry for the formatting, if this becomes a thing I'll do the wiki and the logo):

Slides:

https://github.com/tef/emfcamp2012/raw/master/programming_is...

Blub Paradox:

http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BlubParadox

Perl and 9/11:

http://www.paulgraham.com/hijack.html

10x:

http://hfs.sagepub.com/content/16/1/70.short

http://www.construx.com/10x_Software_Development/Origins_of_...

http://www.construx.com/10x_Software_Development/Productivit...

Waterfall (same pdf, linking from 2 sources):

http://www.cs.umd.edu/class/spring2003/cmsc838p/Process/wate...

http://leadinganswers.typepad.com/leading_answers/files/orig...

Conway's law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law

Unrelated, Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy (I just like this law):

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html

X-Y Problem:

http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/66377/what-is-the-xy...

Atwood, Don't Learn to Code:

http://blog.codinghorror.com/please-dont-learn-to-code/

Wason selection task:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wason_selection_task

LMGTFY:

https://www.google.com/search?q=pieget+constructive+learning https://www.google.com/search?q=curry+howard+isomorphism

Amazon Links, no referral:

http://www.amazon.com/Mindstorms-Children-Computers-Powerful... http://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-Teams-3... http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B8USS14/ref=wl_mb_recs_2_title http://www.amazon.com/Design-Essays-Computer-Scientist-ebook...

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#103

Post by GauntletWizard »

andyjdavis wrote: post #74
smegel wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no idea if he's coding 10x faster It's a bad myth that "speed" has anything to do with the 10x or 100x programmer. The thing that sets great programmers apart is their ability to instinctively and intuitively design elegant and correct solutions to a given problem while introducing minimal bugs. A great programmer whose code will stand the test of time without needing a total rewrite 6 months later and witho…

>know how to minimize complexity I don't think this gets nearly enough praise when assessing people. I've worked at a few different software companies with a raft of different programmers and among those who were deemed "superstars" there were certainly a few who I wouldn't want to work with (or inherit code from) given the choice due to the hideously complex nature of their output. Despite their ability to produce m…

I'm currently working for a company where "Move Fast" means "Write lots of code". As a result, there's a lot of sloppiness, duplication, and pieces that don't quite fit together right. I'm having difficulty explaining the importance of reductionism; In the words of Antoine de Saint Exupéry: "It seems that perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove."

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#104

Post by scrapcode »

csours wrote: post #102

Putting aside all the ad-hominem and everything-is-terrible, I think I learned a lot from following the references Tef makes in this talk. Some references (sorry for the formatting, if this becomes a thing I'll do the wiki and the logo): Slides: https://github.com/tef/emfcamp2012/raw/master/programming_is... Blub Paradox: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BlubParadox Perl and 9/11: http://www.…

TL;DR: this, and this guy really does not like Jeff Atwood.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#105

Post by learc83 »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #85
cheese1756 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like arguing that surgeons are performing a blue collar job when they're given a diagnosis and test results from another physician. In theory they're performing the same repetitive motion, just like programmers are in theory creating an implementation to solve a given problem. However, there are provably good and bad surgeons and provably good and bad programmers. The reality is that you're making a lot of dec…

I agree with you, except for one thing: Surgeons are briefed on the problem, the diagnosis, the patient's medical history, given all the information they need to know about the project. They are then locked in a small room with all the tools and assistants they need, and given complete and total authority and autonomy over the process and results. Because of that, surgeons are some of the most respected people in the…

>They are then locked in a small room with all the tools and assistants they need, and given complete and total authority and autonomy over the process and results.

A surgeon of that level would be more analogous to a very senior programmer with management responsibilities. Said surgeon only got to that point after years of working very long hours with little autonomy.

And surgeons only get that autonomy for a fraction of their day, every doctor I've ever met complains about hospital and insurance company bureaucracies.

If you want to compare a bunch of 20-40 year old programmers sitting in an office plan at facebook to doctors, you'd do better comparing them to ER residents who definitely don't have the kind of autonomy you're talking about.

There are also plenty of "professional" programmers working as consultants.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#106

Post by learc83 »

kanzure wrote: post #90
chongli wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

N0tch's Twitch streams are rather misleading. It seems like he has incredible speed and productivity but that's mainly because he's repeating a well-rehearsed implementation.

> but that's mainly because he's repeating a well-rehearsed implementation. I would like to watch videos of someone doing something similar, but not well-rehearsed reimplementation. Got any? Thank you..

https://handmadehero.org/

Definitely not rehearsed, but the first few weeks are stuff he knows well enough that it goes really fast.

After that, though he starts to get into things that he hasn't done (at least in a long time).

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#107

Post by reedlaw »

amagumori wrote: post #101
nemothekid wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its rather strange you would bring up Notch, as I wouldn't consider Notch-run Minecraft a marvel of engineering. I'd hate to be the guy who cleans up after him, and while Minecraft works (and it is a really great game), most people consider to be terribly built.[1] So yes, while Notch is a rather speedy engineer, I wouldn't consider the skills of an engineer based on how fast they code. Maintainability is an importan…

game devs like notch have made a conscious and canny decision to value actually making something over code quality. also, notch didn't build minecraft expecting it to be a runaway success. see, you are a programmer - you make code. notch is a game developer. he USES code to make THINGS. the things matter, not the code. the game developer ethic is "nothing matters but getting the game running." it's not that notch is…

I think we all use code to make things. However, not caring about the code can spell disaster for the thing we're making. In the case of Minecraft it appears the code is good enough but I wonder how many more features would exist if it wasn't for the poor design.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#108

Post by inanutshellus »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #91
cheese1756 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point. I'd argue that programmers who are treated that way have bad managers, though, rather than it being a function of programming as a profession. I've never dealt with a company that hasn't given me some autonomy, though, so I can't really comment on that perspective. A company can give programmers autonomy, or it can give them bits of information and treat them poorly. It could also do this for its sa…

Yeah, there are business out there who treat programmers "properly", but they're unfortunately the exception rather than the rule, and that's not going to change any time soon.

I push back when the business hands me implementation in requirements (e.g. "Make me a button that rings a bell 10 seconds after I click it" versus "I need to know when a query finishes; it usually takes 10 seconds." which leads to "holy CRAP, that query takes 10 seconds?! Lets solve that!").

The first few times I did it, it caused a bit of an uproar, but very quickly they came to realize that they got better quality software when the person making it understood why he was making it.

Likewise, if you're in an environment where you're an eyes-down bricklayer (and unhappy about it)... Maybe it's time to put your big-boy pants on.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#109

Post by arjie »

jldugger wrote: post #47
steven2012 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in the industry for >20 years. I've met 2 engineers/programmers that some would call the mythical 10x engineer. These are engineers that you can literally build your entire company on their shoulders because they do everything and they do everything with very few mistakes. The problem with the term is that everyone thinks they are 10x engineers, when they aren't. As I've mentioned, there were only 2 people…

> He was online almost every hour of the week/day and he was always working. It's a lot easier to be a "10x engineer" when you work 2x-3x the hours everyone else.

Is it really? I would go net negative productivity at 2x everyone else's hours.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#110

Post by thesimpsons1022 »

lsd5you wrote: post #10
encoderer wrote: post #7

He bashes the "myth of the 10x" engineer. Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example. Anybody who has watched N0tch code on Twitch knows that there are certainly people who are far more productive coders than the average engineer. I have no idea if he's…

We all have a super power or two (or none or, sometimes more than two ...). Do you not think what you wrote is just liberal dogma? I think there probably are people with few things going for them. Possibly removed from you socially due to the various filters that act on our lives.

why liberal?
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