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When Nerds Collide (2014)

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Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#341
post #82

There will always be bullies, it does not end at high school. Only thing nerd can do is to keep his cool, and not feed any trolls :-)

Or, you know, quick, reflexive, and measured (no overkill) retribution.

Stick a kitten's nose in their pee a few times and they'll learn to use the litter box.

That doesn't mean you hate or disrespect the kitten, it means you're applying a bit of punishment now to avoid bigger problems later.

This is true regardless of who's in charge for the simple reason that the carpet doesn't care who's in charge, if something pees on it, it will smell.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What exactly did she do? I recall she complained on Twitter, and exercised her freedom of speech to express her opinion. What she did was escalate , and that unwisely. She added identifying info. Anyone familiar with the internet knows what can happen. Say I'm wrong, and that she never meant for it to get so out of hand. Where was her defense of mr-hank? She could have stopped the madness or even reversed it after t…

How about you don’t tell me what I’m going to say in response to you, and then you don’t argue with yourself ? What I’ll actually say is that you appear to have decided that she got what she deserved, and everything you’re arguing is post-facto reasoning to rationalize the decision you’ve already made. I might as well have a discussion with a volleyball.

He didn't say what you were going to respond.

"Say I'm wrong, and that she never meant for it to get so out of hand." Is him saying "let's assume I'm wrong, and etc etc"

Comparing people with a volleyball, on the other hand, is pretty clearly an insult/ad hominem.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#343
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an odd definition of personal privilege you have, where the privileged person suffers two years of harassment and abuse, and the person without privilege immediately returns to a lucrative career. It's also an odd definition of professional victim, where publicly being a 'victim' results in you getting booted out of the profession. I don't want to comment on the event itself here -- but I think that the aftermat…

> It's an odd definition of personal privilege you have, Which is most privileged: * Developer evangelist vs developer-on-the-floor * 10 000 twitter followers vs nothing > It's also an odd definition of professional victim, where publicly being a 'victim' results in you getting booted out of the profession. Why she was booted from her profession was because she misused her position, -in a way that caused significant…

>"Why she was booted from her profession was because she misused her position," And if you take that at face-value, it's ironically, the very thing that feminists are supposedly fighting against in terms of sexism in the workplace.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#344

Since when is there such a thing as "weird nerds" and "cool nerds" ? I've never heard people identify as such. Methinks it an arbitrary distinction invented by the author, to support his argument. I'm still not sure what the argument is. Also, since when do you have to join a nerd subculture to be accepted as a programmer? Since when is being a nerd and being a feminist mutually exclusive? I don't get this article. A…

As a "weird nerd", let me explain. "Weird nerds" are the people who not so long ago were ostracized by society for their interest in science and technology. They weren't "cool", they weren't doing things that "cool" people do, so they were bullied. Many of them indeed became programmers and laid foundation of what is now the IT industry. Then, tech became mainstream and seen as a very good career path. It started bei…

No, I get that the author is making that distinction between weird and cool. And I' get that you're making it. But this distinction... it's bullshit. Nobody identifies as weird or as cool. And being weird was never a prerequisite for being interested in computers . Most of all, being weird doesn't give anyone the right to exclude women, minorities, or even "cool" people from technology. I thought the hacking community was supposed to be inclusive!

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. And here I think is the crux of the problem; it's what the article was about. Tech became mainstream, and attracted people who look at it as a job. From the point of view of us native nerds, we became colonized and are being pushed back from the thing we built as our little place in the universe where we would feel…

Yeah but you feeling threatened by newcomers to the industry is no different than my old white grandfather feeling threatened when hispanics move next door. The tech industry was the one place where you felt accepted. Isn't it selfish to deny that acceptance to others?

Only dogs bark at strangers. The rest of us say "welcome."

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing) You seem very sure about when Adria Richards (the lady involved in "donglegate") "tried" to join the nerd community. And yet you're wrong. Here's a partial bio from a recent article: "She was introverted, smart, and "weird" (according to the other kids)—a burgeoning nerd. By age 17, sh…

I agree with you—she wasn’t an outsider trying to join the group. She’s a real nerd, culturally. But this is exactly what I (and many nerds) don't care about. I don't care whether Adria Richards is in the in-group or the out-group. I care about her ideas. I care about her code. So far I’ve only seen her ideas, and her ideas include feeling like her life was threatened because of a “dongle” joke. That’s not a scathing…

This is pretty warped.

If we want all people to turn up with their ideas, we have to create an environment where all people feel comfortable being present and expressing their ideas. We have mainly done that for white dudes with reasonable levels of social capital. I'd like to do it for everybody.

The feeling of being a visibly different minority in a crowd can be unsettling. (As a white guy I experience it rarely, but when it happens, I notice the difference acutely.) This is true regardless of actual risk. But women are currently at higher risk of all sorts of predatory behavior: creeps, stalkers, harassers, sexual assaulters, rapists. I personally expect that a sexualized environment will increase those risks. But even if they don't, suddenly having your context shifted from, "professional who likes to code thinking about code" to "fuckable prey for the predators in the crowd around you" is problematic.

Our choices are either to give up and have those people mainly stay away or to work on creating a safe space so that everybody can attend. There is no middle path here. Pycon explicitly chose the latter.

Does this exclude ideas? I guess, in a sad and limited sense of the term "ideas". Pycon's limited the acceptable content thusly: "All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience including people of many different backgrounds. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks."

Does this mean you can't talk about your favorite masturbation techniques on stage? Sure. But seriously, why would you? What sort of incredible idea exchange are we missing out on here by saying that a Python conference has to be about Python? If you also want to talk about sex, there are conferences about that. There's even a well-established conference about sex and technology. [1]

What you're refusing to connect here is what happened to Adria before and after she posted a tweet about a Code of Conduct violation. She was harassed and threatened; her employer was attacked, harming their business. These are all crimes, and they're crimes for a reason. You might not see the connection, but to me (and I'm sure to any woman in tech) it's pretty obvious: men willing to attack women are part of the tech community. They could be anybody. [2]

She surely knew that there could well be predators in that crowd. And the moment the context is sexualized is the moment that she has to start paying attention to that rather than the content. This is true for anybody, but it is especially true for people who have been traumatized in the past. And given the stats on sexual assault, there are guaranteed to be women like that at any significant conference.

So I'm firmly on the side of codes of conduct because I don't want a random grab-bag of ideas at a conference. I want a specific curated set of good ideas. And if that means people have to save their weak sex jokes and their pictures of porn stars for a few hours until they're somewhere else, I'm fine with that.

[1] http://www.monochrom.at/arse-elektronika/

[2] This basically makes you and me and any dude in a crowd Schroedinger's Rapist: http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-sch... http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_Rapi...

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That's as good as calling him out by name." As far as I know the guys name was not widely, if at all, published.

Yes, his name has been carefully kept out of public discussions. This is the patriarchy protecting his reputation while repeating the complainant's name as often and as widely as possible to make sure that anyone who dislikes what she did has a target for criticism and/or abuse while the people who dislike what he did don't.

Hahaha the patriarchy! How much of your day do you spend feeling oppressed?

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#348
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually an ideal. Ideals also don't exist in reality. The difference is that ideals are generally held to be worth striving for in spite of that.

Actually it’s used as a bludgeon to kill all debate, not something to strive towards. The point that’s always made is that something already is this magical and perfect meritocracy with the selection process already working perfectly. The term meritocracy is thrown into the faces of those that question the selection process as a defense of the selection process. Perfectness is just assumed, not something to be strive…

Actually the corollary to my point is that there can never be a true meritocracy anywhere on the planet. It's impossible for exactly the reasons you've outlined. It doesn't mean it's not worth striving, but I do agree that anyone who tells you that they've done it has simply quit trying and is rationalizing that fact.

People fuck up all the time. I would never claim that there's no issue because we already have a meritocracy. We don't. We will never have one. Like a lot of ideals it's something worth looking at by comparison, to decide how closely we want to model our actions on it.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#349
post #191

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

It's definitely spot-on. I think it has a great example of anti-feminist/male-privileged mindset: > Desire for civility and freedom from objectification is "censorship" > Wanting to not support misogynists/rape apologists/rape denialists/sexual predators is worse than the soviets > My fear of social ostracism is as or more valid than your fear of being raped > My chosen "identities" are as important as the assigned s…

[deleted]

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#350
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diversity is a bullshit term. It does not exist in reality. It's an illusion, a joke. Equality is a bullshit term. It does not exist in reality. It's an illusion, a joke. See what I did there? You've got to explain why you think it's a bullshit term--because as an ideal, it's a damned sight more useful than whatever else people are pushing.

- Because the criteria of "merit" usually "just happen" to be a description of the people who get to define them and evaluate others. - Because measuring only at the finishing line while ignoring how far people have had to come is in fact unequal, not equal treatment. - Because the concept victim-blames those who aren’t allowed/enabled/supported to succeed according to it. - Because it's a really astounding statistic…

Thought exercise: reconcile concept of victim blaming with objective criteria-based meritocracy.
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