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Poor Kids of Silicon Valley

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231–240 of 280 posts

Re: Poor Kids of Silicon Valley

#231
post #226
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're partway there. You've made the case that some financial support is wise. You haven't made the case that it needs to be in a location of your choice, rather than the minimum needed to keep you as healthy as possible. If the climate in San Francisco helps a person stay healthy, there are likely dramatically cheaper places that would have the same beneficial effect. Assuming, of course, the goal being to produce…

I wasn't asking for financial support from anyone. I was only arguing against what has been stated in this discussion on HN: "just move." I have my reasons why I chose to come back to California. Not that it is actually any of your business, but I don't currently get any kind of government "assistance." I'm somewhat baffled as to what you are arguing with me about. FWIW: Before my life got derailed, I planned to be a…

My case is the same as it was previously: we may respect someone's decisions, but that doesn't mean we're going to put financing behind them.

In other words, the best way to help someone might not be handing them whatever addresses their most immediate problem. Controlling their lives to do things like administer medical treatment might produce better, cheaper, more reliable long-term outcomes. Is that "unnecessary hardship"?

Consider that SF's record of attempting to deliver services in-place to the homeless population has not made much of a dent in the size of the population.

Re: Poor Kids of Silicon Valley

#232

This may not be the most popular thing to say, but ... Just move? If you are the head of a large household living in an area where the cost of living is too high to support your dependents, you would do a whole lot of good for them and yourself by starting new in some other part of the country. At the very least it would be wise to relocate across the Bay. I realize that people have families, social networks, and sma…

I don't agree with it, but the Bloomberg administration in NYC tried a program where they bought one-way plane tickets for homeless families[1] to leave the overcrowded shelter system. Critics were against it because it wasn't addressing any of the root causes of the problem, rather just moving/hiding it in a similar way to the bulldozing of "the Jungle"

I am struggling to find the name of the program in the article in order to see if it has "worked" in any way to reduce homelessness. Not sure if it is even still around.

EDIT: It's called Project Reconnect[2] and it is still around even though De Blasio apparently was against it[3]

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/29/nyregion/29oneway.html [2] http://www1.nyc.gov/nyc-resources/service/3601/project-recon... [3] http://nypost.com/2014/09/06/de-blasio-has-sent-1412-homeles...

Re: Poor Kids of Silicon Valley

#233
A lot of people here are saying maybe poor people should just move away to where it's cheaper. Supposedly, the economic arguments are in their favor. If you can't afford to live here, why don't you just move to where you can?

Counter arguments say the expected "that's not fair to them." But I think that's missing the point. The real, honest truth is we (speaking as someone better off) need these people to stay here. If they move away, who will drive our buses? Who will teach our children? Who will build our homes? Who will do all the jobs that don't pay well enough for the richer ones among us to do? (Please don't say machines. We're not there yet.)

Two solutions:

(1) Pay them more, so they can afford to live here. But that begs the question. Where is the money going to come from? Frankly, it's unlikely we'll just suddenly start paying construction workers and plumbers and teachers more.

(2) Subsidize their cost of living. There's probably a case to be made that if we need people to work these jobs, they should be entitled to some cost of living subsidies. Maybe create a group of "endangered" jobs that we need but whose average wages are lower than the cost of living. Anyone who works those jobs has access to affordable housing, gas credits, etc. It's a run around the wage market, but maybe it could work.

Re: Poor Kids of Silicon Valley

#234
post #154
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disregarding the question of the cost/possibility of moving, do we as a society want communities to be completely segregated based on income? Do we want poor kids to grow up without role models and good education opportunities? Do we want rich kids to grow up believing they somehow deserve all this, completely detached from the rest of society and the problems they face? The forces of the market are not the forces of…

This is called social engineering.

It actually has an older, more common, name: policy. Doing something and not doing something are both kinds of policy, and are both choices we make. Pretending that the market forces are somehow neutral or natural is factually false. They are nothing more than the product of a certain chosen policy.

Re: Poor Kids of Silicon Valley

#235
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is, what these folks want for their lives matters in a discussion concerning their lives. You've said, ship 'em out! Retrain them! If they don't want to do those things, do nothing. What I'm going for is: ask them, too. It makes very little sense to try to have a conversation about solving a community's problem without listening to members of that community.

>You've said, ship 'em out! Retrain them! If they don't want to do those things, do nothing. It seems you have misunderstood my point. I'm not saying to load them up and ship them out. I'm saying that if they want help, the best utilization of limited resources will be in helping them move somewhere more affordable. But they don't have to accept help; it isn't being forced on them. I'm saying offer options, not enfor…

And I keep saying, rather than propose a menu of options to the community without getting their input, get their input.

Our conversation is now going something like this:

You: If they want to move, move them, otherwise do nothing

Me: Ask them what they want

You: I'm not saying they have to move, just that that's what we can do

Me: Ask them what they want

You: You misunderstand, they don't have to move, but that's their option if they want help

Me: Ask them what they want

Are we going to keep going back and forth like this all day?

Re: Poor Kids of Silicon Valley

#236
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also find that happens on certain cruise lines. A family works on a ship and send the money back home. I am guessing that some people think that there is so much money sloshing around the Valley that taxes should be higher to take care of those in need. The potential problem there is that you simply encourage more people to stay or actually even more people to move to the area to take advantage of that benefit.

That's probably why all the solutions mentioned by the article were nationwide and not local. If you improve quality of life everywhere, then you can avoid that problem.

You are talking about solving a problem that would take many years or decades to solve.

Re: Poor Kids of Silicon Valley

#237

This may not be the most popular thing to say, but ... Just move? If you are the head of a large household living in an area where the cost of living is too high to support your dependents, you would do a whole lot of good for them and yourself by starting new in some other part of the country. At the very least it would be wise to relocate across the Bay. I realize that people have families, social networks, and sma…

Our society can't operate without an integrated workforce and you can't have an integrated workforce if you segregate people based on their income. For every software engineer in the Bay Area there is an army of waiters, cooks, janitors, sanitation workers, retail workers, office workers, school teachers, nurses, and unskilled laborers that supports him. And if you move them all out, well, I don't think that I have t…

The Bay Area engineer is likely there to work for a company that obsoletes one or two of those unskilled laborers. I think the really scary part will be 10 years from now when everything's automated

Re: Poor Kids of Silicon Valley

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When times are tough, moving does not need to be expensive. Before I moved to SV, I sold or donated everything I couldn't fit in two suitcases. I moved into an affordable house where I share a bedroom with 3 other people. I would be able to make rent with only $20k/year. I know not everybody can divorce themselves from all of their belongings, especially large families. Additionally, I didn't have to worry about scho…

You can divorce yourself from your belongings because it's easy for you to find work and quickly replace your belongings. If you know you'll have to sleep on concrete for the next 5 months because you won't be able to find work, you'll carry your mattress with you.

When I moved after college, I slept on the floor without a mattress for 2 months because I didn't want to pay to ship my mattress.

Re: Poor Kids of Silicon Valley

#239
post #231
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't asking for financial support from anyone. I was only arguing against what has been stated in this discussion on HN: "just move." I have my reasons why I chose to come back to California. Not that it is actually any of your business, but I don't currently get any kind of government "assistance." I'm somewhat baffled as to what you are arguing with me about. FWIW: Before my life got derailed, I planned to be a…

My case is the same as it was previously: we may respect someone's decisions, but that doesn't mean we're going to put financing behind them. In other words, the best way to help someone might not be handing them whatever addresses their most immediate problem. Controlling their lives to do things like administer medical treatment might produce better, cheaper, more reliable long-term outcomes. Is that "unnecessary h…

we may respect someone's decisions, but that doesn't mean we're going to put financing behind them.

Sigh.

I am not sure if we are on the same page here with what we are trying to communicate. In some sense, you have to put money behind it in order to respect it, but perhaps not in any manner that you are meaning by that comment.

The current state of the U.S. housing situation grows out of the history of the past many decades, going back to at least WWII. During WWII, men went off the war and women got factory jobs, consumer items were rationed and car factories got converted to making military vehicles. You had a lot of de facto two income households with no kids and no means to have a child due to the man being on a different continent from the woman. During WWII, savings rates were as high as 50% during some years, just because there was no means to spend it all. Luxury items simply weren't available and people in the U.S. were being encouraged to grow Victory Gardens so that food grown on farms could be used to supply the military overseas.

The men came back home after WWII and they were entitled to VA benefits, including help buying a home. Practically overnight, the federal government put together the financial infrastructure to help large numbers of returning soldiers buy a house. There weren't enough houses to go around, in part because WWII was preceded by The Great Depression. So America also had to create the housing infrastructure overnight. This resulted in Levittowns going up all over the place, introducing suburbs to the nation.

At that point in time, the average new home was less than 1200 square feet, two bedrooms, one bath and housed a family with two adults and two to three children. By 2000, the average new house was over 2000 square feet and housed a family with two adults and only one child. We have diversified demographically and we now have a lot more elderly retired couples with no kids at home, single parents, and other non-nuclear families while at the same time having a lot fewer housing alternatives in real terms. During The Great Depression, things like SRO's and boarding houses were a lot more common. These days, if you are a single young person with not much of a paycheck, in most parts of the U.S., you wind up renting an apartment designed for a nuclear family and sharing it with roommates because there basically are no other viable alternatives.

This is all rooted in housing policy, which is very tied up in things like tax breaks and financing instruments. If you do not change policy in a way that makes money/financing instruments more accessible to people currently getting ugly labels because of their low income or lack of housing or what not -- because, in short, they fail to be what America wants to believe is some picture of success, as if that were context-neutral, which it very much is not -- then, no, you aren't ACTUALLY respecting people who are currently being screwed over royally by our current system.

Fixing it doesn't mean more government dole programs that control the lives of the recipients. It means altering national policy such that we genuinely need less of that because market solutions are more available to more people. Right now, housing policy and financing instruments tie the hands of a lot of people.

Anyway, I have work to do. I no longer get food stamps and I kind of would like to eat every day this month. So I need to excuse myself from further participating here, at least until I get some paid writing done.

Thank you.

Re: Poor Kids of Silicon Valley

#240

The "evidence" provided was pretty weak, IMO. I think the last option, a basic living allowance, is something we, as a country, are going to have to come to terms with. As manufacturing continues to automate, even the low skill jobs we offshore are at risk. It is unlikely everybody in the nation will be able to find employment as a knowledge worker or a service worker. That is the direction the world is heading, whet…

"The "evidence" provided was pretty weak, IMO. I think the last option, a basic living allowance, is something we, as a country, are going to have to come to terms with" The issue with this is that once you start giving a basic living allowance, more and more people will continue to rely on it over time and the system will eventually collapse. "I prefer a minimum living stipend for a few reasons: It doesn't treat the…

So how do you handle a growing population size with an ever-shrinking job base? Do you force birth control on people who do not meet a certain level of financial independence? Do you take kids away from parents who lose that financial independence? Do you let people starve and freeze to death?

There is a mythos that everybody can just create and run their own startup, and the world can be fed on startups of O(1) size. I don't believe it (though I believe it can go a long way towards solving the problem), and, even if I did, startups still fail and people still need food, housing and warmth.

Governments don't have to take money from anyone to make this happen. They can just print it. Of course it amounts to the same thing, but everybody's money is dependent on the underlying financial system that is backed by governments (crypto-currencies are, slowly, making this less true).

I wonder how it would turn out if there was a single fund created to provide this living arrangement. Everybody is allowed to donate whatever they want to it (with no benefit other than knowing that they donated), then, any shortfall is met by printing the money, devaluing the currency in use equally for all.

I don't know that it's a good idea; it should be tested first, and, if it fails, we throw it out (unlike so many "big" ideas where, if and when it fails, the reason is always that "we didn't do it big enough, so we have to throw more at it"). The success criteria need to be well defined, but not politically motivated like so many ideas for providing for the poor. Like I said, I don't know how to get there from here.

My issue still is that these costs will only increase over time.

My argument is predicated on the idea that the cost of living will steadily decrease over time. If the cost of shipping approaches zero because everything can be JIT manufactured locally and the social interaction values of living in a city dwindle due to continually improved online interaction, the cost of living becomes food and shelter which don't need to be centralized in expensive cities.

Localized JIT manufacturing is going to massively upset the global economy. I don't see a way out short of massive government efforts to prevent technological progress (which I expect to see), but technology will march forward anyway. Is it better to move towards a new economic model that accounts for it or just deal with the revolution when 75% of people are unemployed?

The biggest risk factor, IMO, is cost of energy. We need it to be going down significantly, because it will take cheap energy to drive the JIT manufacturing that enables a very inexpensive minimum cost of living. I really do think we are in a race between a social collapse due to unemployment, hunger, and social disparity and copious free energy. And I think social collapse is currently winning, so if we could hold that off for a bit, both through reducing social unease and increasing funding in energy research, I'd really be OK with that.

The single worst thing you can do for someone disadvantaged is to give them a reason to stay exactly where they are in life (and no incentive to succeed at something more). A basic income does exactly this.

No, the single worst thing you can do is let them starve or freeze to death, because then their one and only life is over. And that literally happens to poor people. I consider this argument the "the poor are only poor because they are lazy, so anything that makes them more lazy will only make them worse" argument. And I believe it is a lazy argument in itself.

I've scrounged through cupboards hoping there was anything in them while my parents drank away whatever money they got. I get the potential negatives better than most people around here. But I also know that there are a lot of people who were just not fortunate to be born in the right place to the right parents with the right opportunities right in front of them.

I went to school and to college, paid for by the tax payer mostly, because I worked hard (actually, most people in the US went to college mostly paid for by the tax payer, regardless of how hard they worked). Should I have been told to piss off because my parents couldn't pay for me to go to college? I had a high school diploma, so I had "enough", right?

Where do you draw the line? How do you determine who is good enough and who isn't? All I'm saying is the answer to the first question is no, I shouldn't have (I've provided far more value than I cost) and the answer to the rest is it is a waste of time to even try to answer them.

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