Further ties of NSA to Equation Group hackers • Hacker News Board

Re: Further ties of NSA to Equation Group hackers

#71

Post by at-fates-hands » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 7:21 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #44

at-fates-hands wrote: post #30

From the article: "saying only that the operation had to have been sponsored by a nation-state with nearly unlimited resources to dedicate to the project." Hmmmmmm, you mean like Russia or China? "malware developers endeavor to scrub usernames, computer IDs, and other text clues from the code they produce. While the presence of the "BACKSNARF" artifact isn't conclusive proof it was part of the NSA project by that nam…

Nothing in your post is in line with reality. You've cherry picked statements out of context to imply that they are not exclusive to the NSA, ignoring the smoking guns that were presented and failing to link them. There is simply no question that this is USG malware, and you'll notice that Kaspersky, who, no, does not have extensive ties to the FSB and Russian government, actually stops short of attribution, unlike p…

>>> Nothing in your post is in line with reality.

Except that part about Kaspersky. Or do you not believe the Wired article from 2012?

http://www.wired.com/2012/07/ff_kaspersky/all/

"Kaspersky’s rise is particularly notable—and to some, downright troubling—given his KGB-sponsored training, his tenure as a Soviet intelligence officer, his alliance with Vladimir Putin’s regime, and his deep and ongoing relationship with Russia’s Federal Security Service, or FSB. Of course, none of this history is ever mentioned in Cancun."

I'm also glad you actually read my entire post before gang banging your keyboard with your response. I said I don't dismiss this outright, but I've become somewhat skeptical of Kaspersky. He's done a good job exposing NSA activities while seemingly turning a blind eye to Russian state hacking activities. I think its fair to ask why he's catching all these NSA sponsored groups, but was totally silent about a Russian group of hackers who have had access to our critical infrastructure since 2011:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/6/russian-hacke...

Or maybe the JPMorgan Chase hack?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/10/04/jpmo...

Again, like I said in my post (which you clearly didn't read) I'm getting NSA fatigue. If other Info Sec companies came out and said they had found these, in my eyes, they would have more credibility than Kaspersky. It just seems like the only stuff he finds are NSA tools and I have to consider his background before I jump up and say this is a smoking gun. Similarities? Yes. Like I said in my post, this is the same thing other Info Sec people dismissed about the Sony Hack, why can't I use the same argument here?

You want a smoking gun? Get the president to admit it like he did with Stuxnet:

http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-cyberattacks-us-israeli...

"Administration officials revealed to Sanger that the Stuxnet virus was developed by the National Security Agency (NSA) and Israel's Unit 8200 (i.e. Israel's secretive cyber arm) to "become the attacker from within" Iran's nuclear facilities."

Re: Further ties of NSA to Equation Group hackers

#72

Post by krapp » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 7:28 PM UTC

arca_vorago wrote: post #69

LLWM wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time you saw an argument on an internet message board change anyone's mind? I am sure there are plenty of government and military bureaucrats who aren't bothered by futility of their efforts, but the leaks we've seen so far suggest that the NSA, at least, are competent at achieving their goals.

Strange, for some reason I couldn't reply to your comment for a while. I have seen minds changed quite frequently on the internet, and I think the cynical attitude towards internet discussions isn't helpful. It largely depends on the forum and it's quality though. For example, HN is a great place for people to find factual correction from peers, and I see it daily here. On reddit, subs like /r/askhistorians or /r/eng…

Deep threads have an increasing delay attached to them to prevent flamewars, because HN assumes the quality of a comment is inversely proportional to its depth. Like a lot of Hacker News' attempts at social engineering, it doesn't really work but it is annoying.

This is one of the details which should probably be considered when trying to spot the presence of shills or agents here, that HN is engineered with a bias to begin with.

Although, according to that clearly authoritative pastebin, questioning a conspiracy is evidence of a conspiracy.

Re: Further ties of NSA to Equation Group hackers

#73

Post by pdkl95 » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 7:30 PM UTC

cryoshon wrote: post #27

arkem wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment would be stronger if you omitted the final sentence. Fortifying your opinion by preemptively calling other people contributing to the discussion "astroturfers and apologists" is poor form.

Shrug. Consider JTRIG: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Threat_Research_Intellig... They're very blatantly using astroturfing and shilling to silence people who go against their idea of the way things should be. I doubt HN is going to have an astroturf quotient as high as someplace like reddit, though.

"Astroturfing" is when a corporation shills for or otherwise defends its own products while acting like it is a regular person authoring the post. It is "fake grassroots" (hence the name).

What JTRIG does is far worse, and should really be called the continuation of COINTELPRO. Astroturf-style posting is only one of the tools in their toolbox.

Re: Further ties of NSA to Equation Group hackers

#74

Post by LLWM » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 7:43 PM UTC

arca_vorago wrote: post #69

LLWM wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time you saw an argument on an internet message board change anyone's mind? I am sure there are plenty of government and military bureaucrats who aren't bothered by futility of their efforts, but the leaks we've seen so far suggest that the NSA, at least, are competent at achieving their goals.

Strange, for some reason I couldn't reply to your comment for a while. I have seen minds changed quite frequently on the internet, and I think the cynical attitude towards internet discussions isn't helpful. It largely depends on the forum and it's quality though. For example, HN is a great place for people to find factual correction from peers, and I see it daily here. On reddit, subs like /r/askhistorians or /r/eng…

Factual correction is not the same as changing someone's mind. On a subject like what is an acceptable level of domestic espionage, the contention is about moral values and priorities within society. Disagreement about facts doesn't come into it.

And if all government propaganda agents did was correct peoples' factual errors, I would welcome them wholeheartedly.

Re: Further ties of NSA to Equation Group hackers

#75

Post by strictnein » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 8:00 PM UTC

Mikushi wrote: post #62

strictnein wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's all getting a little ridiculous. Every country has been spying on every other country since the beginning of countries. The leaks from Snowden, Greenwald, et al are becoming less about privacy violations and unjustified data collection and more about legitimate spying efforts, but they're still being met with breathless outrage here and elsewhere. Also, are we really thinking "Grok" is some sort of identif…

Just because something has been done "Since the dawn of time" is not a valid reason to keep doing it whatsoever. As a foreign citizen of the US (or UK) where this type of activity seems king, I'm threatened and consider these activities hostile and reason enough to not do any sort of business with US based companies or US residents. There are no legitimate spying efforts, these agencies from day one have used and abu…

Whatever country you're from is trying to do what the US is doing, they just aren't as good at it, so they likely are resorting to using hard techniques. Think lead pipes.

Re: Further ties of NSA to Equation Group hackers

#76

Post by flyryan » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 8:22 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #28

tptacek wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what repercussions there should be for that, but any consideration of repercussions has to consider the alternative to electronic attack, which is airplanes dropping munitions from great heights onto buildings with people in them. People should probably not kid themselves about geopolitics and military competition vanishing if we somehow manage to regulate "electronic warfare".

We recently had a article from Schneier that made a similar observation comparing electronic attack to airplanes dropping munitions from great heights, which is why the conclusion was that electronic attacks should be under the control of the military and not by NSA. We expect the military to strike other nations civil infrastructure (or at least the subject can be debated), but we also expect them to take responsibi…

Schneier is also the one who said these are the types of things the NSA should be doing[1].

[1] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/12/more_about_th...

Re: Further ties of NSA to Equation Group hackers

#77

Post by rilita » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 8:37 PM UTC

I would have no problem with the NSA creating crazy intrusive hacking tools if public citizens were allowed to do the same.

If a regular person created tools such as what the NSA made they would get in a heap of trouble, even if they did nothing with them.

If the NSA does it; it's ok? This is the kind of logic that leads to abuses of power. Government are just people, and they are just as likely if not more likely than the average person to abuse their power.

Re: Further ties of NSA to Equation Group hackers

#78

Post by rl3 » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:04 PM UTC

ccvannorman wrote: post #17

The reason it's a big deal is because as more power accumulates in the hands on the "adults in the room", the more likely those adults are to become creepy, overbearing assholes -- There are many examples, the most prominent one in my mind being that the FBI/Hoover tried to convince MLK to kill himself, fully backed by the government. As the NSA et al get more [unchecked] power it will become more corrupt, isn't this…

This is partly speculation, but from everything I've read, the NSA appears to take its regulatory compliance a lot more seriously than the contractors that serve it do.

I'm not saying contractors are hives of abuse or anything, just that if there is abuse, it seems far more likely to happen there.

I'd also say the more senior the position, government or not, the more likely they are to be able to get away with it.

Most worrisome are the well-connected people who sit at the intersection of state and corporate power. For example, former intelligence officials who frequent the revolving door and take high-level executive positions at major contractors. These are people you wouldn't want to cross.

Re: Further ties of NSA to Equation Group hackers

#79

Post by keppy » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 10:12 PM UTC

ccvannorman wrote: post #17

The reason it's a big deal is because as more power accumulates in the hands on the "adults in the room", the more likely those adults are to become creepy, overbearing assholes -- There are many examples, the most prominent one in my mind being that the FBI/Hoover tried to convince MLK to kill himself, fully backed by the government. As the NSA et al get more [unchecked] power it will become more corrupt, isn't this…

Others have commented that evidence of Mallory's wrong doings would not be permitted in trial. Assuming this is true, court won't work.

Another thing I've gleaned is that Mallory spends incredible amounts of money to undermine the stability and security of our internet & hardware. We cannot compete with them on that level; we don't have the means to stabilize as quickly as they destabilize.

I actually want to know if anyone has any ideas about what to do in this reality. What do you do when constructive and legal means both fail? Seems like Mallory can get away with anything.

Re: Further ties of NSA to Equation Group hackers

#80

Post by csandreasen » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 11:27 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #28

tptacek wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what repercussions there should be for that, but any consideration of repercussions has to consider the alternative to electronic attack, which is airplanes dropping munitions from great heights onto buildings with people in them. People should probably not kid themselves about geopolitics and military competition vanishing if we somehow manage to regulate "electronic warfare".

We recently had a article from Schneier that made a similar observation comparing electronic attack to airplanes dropping munitions from great heights, which is why the conclusion was that electronic attacks should be under the control of the military and not by NSA. We expect the military to strike other nations civil infrastructure (or at least the subject can be debated), but we also expect them to take responsibi…

The NSA is subordinate to the Department of Defense - it is part of the military.