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When Nerds Collide (2014)

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Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#251
I think this article is fantastic in its framework, but it's ultimately aimed at the wrong people.

The writer is assuming a powerful left-brain empathy that is characteristic of hackers ("I'd lay better odds that he’s paying attention, watching your actions and reactions to build a mental model of how it’s safe to interact with you."), yet is lacking in the invaders. The invaders are running a much simpler hardwired social strategy that assumes everyone is like them (even in response, there are plenty of comments insisting that hackers still unconsciously judge people by race in spite of most of our judgments being formed before we ever see someone. it's simple projection), and are not setup to understand those who are different. They cannot change, and consequently we will lose the social game of chicken every time.

What I'd really like to see/find/create/sustain is a community of people that are able to resist being distracted by the narrow trap of the social hierarchy - VC money, PR articles from companies, status-quo politics, proprietary Appoogle product/tech announcements, mass media human interest stories, etc. More similar to the Internet I grew up with, where objective technical merit was the ideal to strive towards, and being told to RTFM resulted in someone learning how to self-learn and ask intelligent questions rather than getting attention from writing clickbait on how they were offended. Maybe this is impossible because we've gotten too big/connected, or I personally could just be pitifully stuck in the rut that is HN and myopic from falling out of more specific technical tribes.

Maybe this is impossible and any such community is ultimately doomed to entryism. But articles such as this that take a stab at reifying the qualities of true hackerdom are necessary for us to reflect and understand exactly what is being lost and perhaps come up with ways to defend it in the large, rather than it surviving solely in narrow highly-technical communities.

(PS - a point i wanted to make elsewhere in the thread about the general article, but I will do here instead because it applies to my comment as well:

It is easy to phrase this issue in in binary us-vs-them hacker or not-a-hacker terms but the reality is continuous. So while it is nice to think in simpler terms, the topic is actually graver because any of us can be corrupted by social influences as well. The lure of wider acceptance, attention, fame, and/or money can lead us down the path of behavior that we despise - outrage fanning, user-disempowering platforms, working on surveillance tech, etc. The status quo's siren's song is becoming quite apparent right now as the (de)centralization pendulum starts to swing back and the trajectories of companies further diverge from those of free people.)

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#252

I was shocked, visibly, when I found out that no one at the first startup I worked at played tabletop RPGs. I was shocked again when they looked down on me because I did. In a city that prides itself on "weirdos", I was the wrong kind of weird. In college I poured over Steven Levy's Hackers , hoping one day I would be able to meet the tech elite. I jumped at the first chance I got to work out here, hoping I'd finally…

People were shocked , visibly, at my current job when I told them I didn't really do a lot of programming in my spare time. I made sure to not mention it anymore to someone I don't know / trust very well there, they looked like I had breached some kind of unwritten rule or requirement to work for that company - an unvoiced "You have no passion for your job and you do not belong here", of sorts.

That wouldn't be something they could fire me over though, what I do in my spare time is my business, and we have laws that protect that kinda thing.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#253
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried going to one of the many meetups for people interested in games, instead of going to meetups for people interested in startups? http://www.meetup.com/find/?allMeetups=false&keywords=games&... Beyond that, I don't know what to tell you, because I know plenty of people who play games in SF. They're all over -- seemingly every tech company out here has a game night. And I'm not someone who likes to play,…

Hint: startups are the new Dungeons & Dragons.

Hey I'm the co-founder and CTO of a VC'd D&D startup (YC 2016) would you like to come to our meetup???

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#254

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

> people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing) You seem very sure about when Adria Richards (the lady involved in "donglegate") "tried" to join the nerd community. And yet you're wrong. Here's a partial bio from a recent article: "She was introverted, smart, and "weird" (according to the other kids)—a burgeoning nerd. By age 17, sh…

I agree with you—she wasn’t an outsider trying to join the group. She’s a real nerd, culturally. But this is exactly what I (and many nerds) don't care about. I don't care whether Adria Richards is in the in-group or the out-group. I care about her ideas. I care about her code. So far I’ve only seen her ideas, and her ideas include feeling like her life was threatened because of a “dongle” joke. That’s not a scathing review of her as a person—I’m not reviewing her as a person. I’m reviewing her idea. Her idea is just wrong. Everyone has a few wrong ideas—it’s not a big deal.

At the core of the issue of women in tech is a belief that women’s ideas are as good as men’s ideas—on average, women produce as high a percentage of good ideas (and bad ideas) as men. So we want to include women because of their ideas, because we care about their ideas and not who they are.

I don’t know the solution to this problem.

But the solution being proposed in the Adria Richards debate is that Adria Richards was threatened because of who she was. But she wasn’t threatened, she just felt threatened. People are saying we should listen to these feelings and include people like Adria Richards who feel threatened when they aren’t being threatened. It’s an attempt to place her within the group based on who she is, in direct opposition to the fact that her idea, in this case, is wrong. THE ENTIRE POINT of including women is THEIR IDEAS. Holding up someone whose idea was wrong as the poster child for gender equality in tech is diametrically in opposition to why anyone in tech wants to include women in tech.

Not only is this not a solution to the first problem, it directly breaks the ideology that makes tech culture something worth joining.

If we’re going to treat women’s ideas as equal to men’s, that includes treating women’s bad ideas as equal to men’s bad ideas.

I think if you talk to any of the women I’ve worked with, they would describe me as an ally. I’ve called out coworkers on saying sexist things, in front of other people. But I want to solve the problem of there not being many women in tech, not create spaces where people can’t validate ideas because of who said them. If we do that, we’ll just be creating terrible tech companies where women work but ideas can’t be validated, and all the real technologists will move to real tech companies that have no women. A false solution is no solution.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#255
post #146
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. Why? Why can't hyperion2010, or anyone else, have an abrasive culture if they want to? There is nowadays some controversy about, best as I can tell, gamers who like abrasive gaming, ie. shoot and insult each other. I can see how one might not want to participate, but why the need to force them to stop? Wouldn't leaving them to it be a reasonable solution? If som…

I don't necessarily disagree with you, blfr... but: If people like hyperion2010 or others want an abrasive culture, why can't they take what they dish? Why is it so ok for someone to call me a c*&t but I can't say the words "male privilege"?

We do take what we dish all the time, what we pretty much never dish is public and directed attacks on individuals (or other social attacks of which there are many, such as spreading rumors). If I'm in a room with someone that is continually spouting off about all men being sexist pigs and making period jokes I really don't care, that is their prerogative and I have no right to stop them much less publicly attack them (nor do I feel the need, but that is another issue altogether).

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As to the rape statistics, those numbers are highly inflated and less inflated numbers show that men are almost as likely (if not equally) to face sexual violence (but far less likely to report it and far more likely to have it dismissed) and that men are more likely to face physical violence. Mind showing evidence that these numbers are highly inflated? >And now they being invaded by profit-chasers and blamed for t…

>Mind showing evidence that these numbers are highly inflated? For starters, look at recent CDC studies in the last 5 years. Pay extra attention to how most cases of a woman forcing a man to have sex are not classified as rape (which means the summaries about rape are way off). There are other resources that I don't currently have on hand about how they are over inflated, but one recent story was about how over infla…

[deleted]

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#257
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brogrammer is perhaps used for efficiency, so you don't have to write a 10 page screed as we just read (which was excellent by the way). I don't think there's any way to say it in a non-derogatory way if the central message is derogatory. The article seemed to be saying, we have a culture, and if you people infiltrate it, there is a good chance you will ruin it. I happen to agree with him.

It's not efficient. The word "Brogrammer" means "something something men I don't like for reasons I believe are their fault". It doesn't communicate anything, it just invites the reader to invent their own meaning, which has little to do with what the write was thinking. The actual word was invented as a joke in a parody video, as a portmonteau of "bro" and "programmer". It then got picked up as an slur for "disliked…

I don't really use this word or feel the need to participate in discussions about people it represent, but for me, when I see it somewhere, "brogrammer" means an equivalent of "cool people" from high school. Existence of them became possible due to programming becoming lucrative, with plenty of easy learning material, and therefore, beneficial for people you wouldn't at all consider a nerd to learn. It's a programmer who comes from outside of nerd culture, who looks at it like a cool kid from high school looks at school nerds.

It has also a bit "hipsterish" connotation - brogrammer is someone who's "not really into it". "The true nerds" were programmers before it was cool.

At least that's how I understand this term. "disliked man in the tech world" is much too broad, as so called "brogrammers" are supposed to dislike "true nerds".

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#258
post #133

I found the part of the article where it talks about the what if situation about Japan getting rid of work visa to be really interesting. Honestly it shocked me, and has changed the way I think. Also I never thought of it this way, but feminism/brogrammers are super similar in the way they try to colonize nerd culture. A lot of unskilled people are trying to get a career in tech for its perks. They are not good at it…

Before all those late-night commercials in the late '90's ("Make $70K a year!!!") only people that were interested in computers chose a career in them. We make, on average, twice the national average (for U.S.) salary of our peers: people that want the bucks will move in, whether they enjoy bits and bytes or not.

TBF, software development itself is only a relatively small part of the whole tech industry - marketing, communications, recruitment, even food supply and whatnot are all part of it. Just because there's more people that want to work for one of the cool companies, doesn't mean they're actually infringing on the domain of the weird nerd hacker/programmer.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#259

Since when is there such a thing as "weird nerds" and "cool nerds" ? I've never heard people identify as such. Methinks it an arbitrary distinction invented by the author, to support his argument. I'm still not sure what the argument is. Also, since when do you have to join a nerd subculture to be accepted as a programmer? Since when is being a nerd and being a feminist mutually exclusive? I don't get this article. A…

As a "weird nerd", let me explain. "Weird nerds" are the people who not so long ago were ostracized by society for their interest in science and technology. They weren't "cool", they weren't doing things that "cool" people do, so they were bullied. Many of them indeed became programmers and laid foundation of what is now the IT industry. Then, tech became mainstream and seen as a very good career path. It started bei…

I don't agree that the "cool nerds" are impostors and only do it for the attention. I think the difference is more a personality one - extroverts vs introverts. The former in the 'nerd' subculture is the type that goes to ALL the meetups, that likes networking, is highly active on social networking, etc etc etc, while the latter prefers to be left alone with his (literal) devices.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#260
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That resonated with me for completely different reasons. Most of the "extremely weird nerds" from my high school were people with pretty serious functional problems who never did make it anywhere. They are pretty much the forgotten ones. The successful "nerds" were always at least introspective or 'ironic' and could function somewhat normally in social situations including attempting to play whatever status games tha…

Then there's those of us who can do that for a limited amount of time before it overloads them - it's something that requires a lot of brain effort, and doesn't come natural. Then again, I do stuff like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnRSu9LjV7E

Sure, and I understand that feeling very well :).

However, I'm referring more to the "nerds" who are not good at math (or standardized tests or study skills or etcetera). People tend to inaccurately conflate certain personality types with STEM smarties, which is really not fair to either group.

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