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When Nerds Collide (2014)

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Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#171

Post by TeMPOraL »

misuba wrote: post #23

But the proof can't be made. If you’re conditioned to feel like an outsider, you’re going to believe the rejection is always lurking around the corner, and the acceptance is never real, never complete. You’ll remain in sullen sureness that outside is where you’ve been placed — or you’ll keep testing , poking and prodding for the thing you could do that’s horrible enough to prove that you were never really welcome. Th…

It's not always about just being wounded. Many became "weird nerds" because they don't like the tons of bullshit, politics and signalling games mainstream society lives and breathes. You can't "fix" them without destroying who they really are.

I say them, but I myself am a part of this group.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#172

Post by dropit_sphere »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #153
hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

> people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing) You seem very sure about when Adria Richards (the lady involved in "donglegate") "tried" to join the nerd community. And yet you're wrong. Here's a partial bio from a recent article: "She was introverted, smart, and "weird" (according to the other kids)—a burgeoning nerd. By age 17, sh…

Is the dongle thing even remotely defensible? She got a man fired over a private conversation. One of the rules of civilized behavior is that you don't do that.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#173

Post by TeMPOraL »

LordHumungous wrote: post #50

>Programming is an inherently constructivist discipline. A constructivist is like the archetypal Missourian: “Show me!” Many "hackers" are unable to apply this principle to the field of business. They don't understand business, they aren't good at it, and therefore they see it as nothing more than empty headed self-promoters jockeying for social status, just like those "cool kids" who picked on them in high school. T…

It isn't such a blind spot. They may understand the "prime directive" pretty well and see how bullshit it is. It's a system of redistribution of scarce resources that most people got confused about and now play it as a game of its own. It's not the profit that should matter, but the value that is produced, the improvement of human condition.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#175

Post by reitanqild »

bkirwi wrote: post #162
reitanqild wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more to it than that. 1. The words were never meant for her 2. She didn't contact him, maybe she misheard? 3. She was, in fact, way more powerful than him (privilege) 4. She has a history of being a professional victim 5. -and a history of making similarly bad jokes herself, publicly

It's an odd definition of personal privilege you have, where the privileged person suffers two years of harassment and abuse, and the person without privilege immediately returns to a lucrative career. It's also an odd definition of professional victim, where publicly being a 'victim' results in you getting booted out of the profession. I don't want to comment on the event itself here -- but I think that the aftermat…

> It's an odd definition of personal privilege you have,

Which is most privileged:

  * Developer evangelist vs developer-on-the-floor
  * 10 000 twitter followers vs nothing
> It's also an odd definition of professional victim, where publicly being a 'victim' results in you getting booted out of the profession.

Why she was booted from her profession was because she misused her position, -in a way that caused significant harm to the employer.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#176

Post by dropit_sphere »

Argorak wrote: post #127
malandrew wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I see it, any space with written rules (e.g. CoCs) are essentially spaces with restrictions that dilute cultures so that several cultures with a narrow shared interest can mingle productively. Codes of Conduct are essentially anti-cultural for the sake of achieving collaboration between cultures that share a common interest. This isn't a bad thing. It's certainly productive in ways and produces something of v…

> The moment you're thinking in dichotomous terms like "the organizers" and "the attendees" Hold it right there. I run the space, I raise the money, I sign the contracts, I'm can be held responsible if someone misbehaves (morally and legally) and I'm the person that doesn't watch the talks, but uses them as a time where they can actually make sure that the next person has their time and the tables are clean? And "org…

The idea is that you can do whatever you want at a conference you run...and so can I.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#177

Post by angersock »

arrrg wrote: post #108
lucio wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, and this distinction is essential: You're welcomed based on what you can do and not on what you are . "white male" is un-meritocratic, is something you "are", and not something you can "make" by talent and effort. "code" is cold, hard, unforgiving ("you can't argue with a root shell"), and meritocratic. She's saying: Nevermind who you "ARE", you're welcomed if you can "PRODUCE" (great code). That's exactly the an…

Meritocracy is a bullshit term. It does not exist in reality. It’s an illusion, a joke.

Diversity is a bullshit term. It does not exist in reality. It's an illusion, a joke.

Equality is a bullshit term. It does not exist in reality. It's an illusion, a joke.

See what I did there? You've got to explain why you think it's a bullshit term--because as an ideal, it's a damned sight more useful than whatever else people are pushing.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#178

Post by cableshaft »

bluedino wrote: post #132
angersock wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that we even have a collective shared-ideal of "we judge you by your work" is an achievement worth celebrating and continuing, even if we individually fail at it, or even fail at it a lot. And that's the problem I've got with a bunch of the attacks I'll commonly see that are based on privilege: the entire idea is that "well, no, that cool hack doesn't count somehow, because you're a member of $MALIGNED_GROUP…

>> You know why Alan Turing was awesome? It's because he wrote awesome code. Alan Turing is awesome, now. But he wasn't universally thought highly of at the time, was forcefully subjected to medical treatment for his 'condition', and was harassed and basically blacklisted in his professional and personal lives.

Yes, he was harassed and blacklisted by the insiders, the mainstream. Not by the hacker culture, which didn't really exist back then anyway.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#179

Post by neilk »

mcguire wrote: post #155
blfr wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. Why? Why can't hyperion2010, or anyone else, have an abrasive culture if they want to? There is nowadays some controversy about, best as I can tell, gamers who like abrasive gaming, ie. shoot and insult each other. I can see how one might not want to participate, but why the need to force them to stop? Wouldn't leaving them to it be a reasonable solution? If som…

Absolutely. If someone doesn't like the abrasion, all they have to do is not participate in the activity. Not play the games, not go to the con's, not get a job in the industry. Let them take up knitting.

How are any of these activities improved by an abrasive culture?

The only thing it creates, ultimately, is the endgame of the Geek Social Fallacies: a place where the only people left all have nasty personalities and no social connections to any other kinds of people.

http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

If you haven't been in an environment where everybody is tolerated -- you're really missing out. I've been lucky enough to work on projects where programming nerds mingle with visual artists, mechanics, hardware hackers, fashionistas, musicians, and more, and it's amazing. And furthermore, it's not like we're watching what we say all day. In my experience, if you have a baseline where everyone knows they are accepted and have recourse to call someone out, then there's lots of "inappropriate" humor.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#180

Post by angersock »

bluedino wrote: post #132
angersock wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that we even have a collective shared-ideal of "we judge you by your work" is an achievement worth celebrating and continuing, even if we individually fail at it, or even fail at it a lot. And that's the problem I've got with a bunch of the attacks I'll commonly see that are based on privilege: the entire idea is that "well, no, that cool hack doesn't count somehow, because you're a member of $MALIGNED_GROUP…

>> You know why Alan Turing was awesome? It's because he wrote awesome code. Alan Turing is awesome, now. But he wasn't universally thought highly of at the time, was forcefully subjected to medical treatment for his 'condition', and was harassed and basically blacklisted in his professional and personal lives.

We disagree on verb tenses of to be. :)

Anyways, all that other stuff doesn't matter, because he did great things.

The reason it's so important to us that we base our respect on his work and not his suffering is that, frankly, you can't argue with his work. Time may pass, and it may be fashionable/scientifically proven/theologically required to hate gays again and so we'll lose sight of his other issues--but the man's contributions will survive on their own merit. That is far better.

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