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Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

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Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#71

Post by ierio »

Jemaclus wrote: post #2

I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?" She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how…

>I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where the person on the other side of the table is regularly looking at my boobs. What am i supposed to do about that

This is just blatant non-sense. I am immigrant working in US. I can't tell you how many times women have brushed my arms or tried to grab my ass. I am male and have english accent.

What are people supposed to do when you are sitting at exact opposite side ? Close the eyes ? Even if you are directly looking into women's eyes she could be feel that you are looking at her boobs. Its just her own insecurities speaking out. I would not hire such flamboyant bitch.

Also, mind you with diversity comes time to adjust. You can't mix people from all over the world ( India, China, UK,Australia, Mexicans ) and expect them to follow your culture right away. People from India and China ( including Taiwan ) are very hardcore. Many times I have seen they refuse to mix and adjust according to US culture. When I was working in boston for big software company , which also had Indian and Chinese folks, these people would get coffee within their own group and refuse to invite/mix with others. Many of my friends experienced similar thing.

I believe parent commenter is just non-sense believing everything said to him. I would certainly steer away from such person being my manager. One of the managers responsibility is to listen to everything and make good judgement call which he clearly fails to demonstrate.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#72

Post by ierio »

mvarner wrote: post #7
trhway wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where the person on the other side of the table is regularly looking at my boobs. in a 3D Euclidean space where do the person is supposed to be looking at? Staring all the time down into the table? Up into the ceiling? Close the eyes every time while moving eyes from ceiling to the table? I'm asking just out of curiousity as personally i just stare either into ceiling…

I mean, there's a difference between looking at someone because they're talking or you're engaging in the meeting with them and staring directly at their boobs. I've been in situations where people are obviously gawping at me and it's incredibly uncomfortable and it's a much, much different experience than when they're idly looking around a conference room because they're bored.

are you stupid or just spamming ?

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#73

Post by pekk »

falcolas wrote: post #47
pekk wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether they are socially awkward or not, I don't think it's fair to say that technical people are more prone than others to sexual harassment (or rape, for that matter).

Why is that fair to say? Can you back that up at all?

I said it isn't fair to say. I sure wish people would read before reflexively downvoting.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#74

Post by trhway »

Frondo wrote: post #70
powertower wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would he take her at her word? To have diversity we have to have more than the white-knight (that takes all accusations made by females at face value). I've often glanced and looked downwards when talking to someone (or standing close to someone) for a few seconds at a time - just like 100% of us that don't continually stare people in the eyes like a crazy person. I'm sure that a "lady" that reports that people a…

I think your bias is showing in your choice of words--"white knight" is never used (outside fairy tales) as anything but a pejorative. And I'm all for taking everyone at their word until it seems suspect for some reason. Why not? But the broad pattern you see in web chats like these is, a woman says something (e.g. the kind of thing that could make men feel badly, if they realize they've been making people uncomforta…

>and invariably one or more men step in to tell her how she's wrong about it, no, that's not how it went at all....when these men weren't there, have no skin in the game, and these remarks are just more of some "women aren't to be trusted or listened to" general pattern.

i didn't say that she was wrong. I'm pretty sure that she is telling the truth about how she _felt_ and what was her _interpretation_ of the other man's eye position and movements. I don't doubt her account of her feelings and interpretations.

On the other side - why should we trust her interpretation (which i trust she had) about the state of mind of the other man - "gawping" - if she wasn't in the man's head. One thing to say "he kept his eyes on my boobs for 5 seconds for 3 times" - statement of fact (though precise knowledge of direction of somebody eyes may be questionable) vs. "he was gawping" - interpretation about the man's state of mind.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#75

Post by pekk »

gbog wrote: post #68
pekk wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel that you are sexually harassed if there are women in the workplace who are not wearing hijab?

If women are wearing hijabs, it looks like society consider all males as wild beasts unable to restrain their pulsions. If women in the workplace, on ads, everywhere, are all looking like (or trying to look like) 16yo half-naked barbies, it looks like society is placing sexual desire above everything else. If, moreover, males are forbidden to look at them, you have the US, a kind of kafkaian nightmare. Thankfully in…

I have never seen women in the workplace "looking like 16yo half-naked barbies." Never. Not once, in decades working in the US. Nothing about the US is forcing people working in an office to look at big tits all day. This is just completely false and off-base and prejudicial.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#76

Post by JohnBooty »

nameless1234 wrote: post #69
JohnBooty wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the same thing (I'm a guy) but a manager of mine had a great solution to a similar situation. I once had a coworker that said a lot of gross things: racist stuff, creepy sexual stuff, etc. Went on for a while. I told my manager, without naming the other coworker. My manager sent a memo to the department reminding them about the fact that there were often guests in our area and that we needed to be careful about j…

(throwaway account) I really, really dislike this method. If there's a problem employee, deal with that employee. Don't send blanket emails to everyone. It (in my experience) does not work since the person that's actually doing something offensive usually doesn't realize it, and it just confuses all other people working into wondering if they somehow are to blame. This tactic seems to be really common where I work, a…

  > If there's a problem employee, deal with that employee. Don't send blanket emails to everyone.
It's a delicate thing for sure. Certainly not everything can be handled this way. And I am sure that you and I would agree: if the net effect is that the entire team feels that it's being blamed or lectured then it is a failure.

However: it doesn't have to be that way at all.

Depending on the severity of what's going on, it's possible to nudge a team towards better behavior without blaming anybody. Secondly, negative feedback has to be a part of an overall message in which team members are also given positive feedback on what they are doing right.

It sounds like at your job, you guys just get a bunch of blame thrown at the whole team and I'm guessing it's not balanced out by positive feedback on the stuff you do right.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#77

Post by JohnBooty »

jheriko wrote: post #67
Jemaclus wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but you're approaching this from a male perspective of "I'd tell them to stop." That's just not realistic for a woman. If you're a woman, how do you say "Stop looking at my boobs" without negative consequences? Unless she can prove that the guy was leering, as a woman it could be detrimental to her career to speak up. In many cases the man will justify that he was just looking around, like another comment on th…

i'm sorry, but i think this is BS. why is it that men are allowed to do this and women not? equal rights and opportunities only work to solve this problem if exercised. men have negative consequences from confrontation too... its just unfortunate that they are often raised in a way that makes them more comfortable to make that trade off and deal with the consequences than women ('being a man about it') few things are…

At least until things are a heck of a lot more equal than they are today, men have a crucial role to play here.

1. The men who struggle with this the most are also tend to be men who are dismissive to women or have other communication issues with women. Extreme example: if a man thinks it's okay to smack a female coworker on the ass, do you actually think that man is going to listen to a woman's opinion? He'll think she's being a "bitch" or "uptight" or whatever. Of course 99.99% of incidents aren't that extreme but there is a big need for men to guide other men in the right direction.

2. Women still face a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" dilemma when it comes to asserting themselves. If they don't, they're seen as meek or unable to compete. If they do they're often branded as "bossy" or "bitchy."

3. Not generally an issue in white collar work but there are situations where a woman may not feel physically safe confronting a male coworker. This can obviously be an issue for anybody, male or female, but men do tend to be physically larger and stronger.

4. Power imbalance. Men still hold a majority of management positions and make more money on average. Take any random male worker and any random female worker and more often than not the man will be above the woman in the corporate structure. I am sure you can agree that confronting somebody above you in the power structure is a lot harder.

When we have real gender equality, most of these issues will fade away. In the meantime there is work for men to do.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#78

Post by JohnBooty »

ierio wrote: post #71
Jemaclus wrote: post #2

I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?" She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how…

>I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where the person on the other side of the table is regularly looking at my boobs. What am i supposed to do about that This is just blatant non-sense. I am immigrant working in US. I can't tell you how many times women have brushed my arms or tried to grab my ass. I am male and have english accent. What are people supposed to do when you are sitting at exact opposite si…

If you received unwanted physical or sexual behavior, that is a real problem and I am genuinely sorry that you had to deal with that.

A long time ago I received some pretty serious harassment from a female coworker. It happens to men too, and it is not fun at all.

But the fact that it also happens to men doesn't mean that you can just dismiss womens' problems like that. Unless you are living in a culture where men and women are exactly equal, then you need to realize that men and women experience these things differently.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#79

Post by smeyer »

powertower wrote: post #51

In all honesty, the way it works is like this - 1. Attractive male opens door for female. Female blushes, there is no problem. 2. Unattractive male opens door for female. Female reports unwanted behavior. ( "attractive" does not have to mean "physically attractive", it could be another quality ) And I'm not being smug here with the above. No matter what, life is a popularity contest. Outside of that example, with gre…

Have you actually seen someone in your workplace reported to a manager or HR representative for holding open a door outside of a larger pattern of behavior? I've never in my life seen anyone get more than a dismissive look for holding a door, regardless of gender or attractiveness.

Re: Ask HN: Non-Sexist Behaviour Guidelines?

#80

Post by Jemaclus »

ierio wrote: post #71
Jemaclus wrote: post #2

I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?" She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how…

>I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where the person on the other side of the table is regularly looking at my boobs. What am i supposed to do about that This is just blatant non-sense. I am immigrant working in US. I can't tell you how many times women have brushed my arms or tried to grab my ass. I am male and have english accent. What are people supposed to do when you are sitting at exact opposite si…

I think you're making a lot of assumptions here. Firstly, that she's a flamboyant bitch (she's not -- in fact, she has never even mentioned this kind of thing until I asked her). Furthermore, by assuming she's a "flamboyant bitch" at all, you've demonstrated that you're part of the problem and blaming the victim. Can't you see that?

Second, you're making the assumption that if you're sitting directly across from a woman, you have to either look at her or keep your eyes closed. There are a million other things in the room you can look at that don't involve her breasts. There's a fine line between staring intently at her eyes and making casual eye contact while carrying on a conversation. I'm capable of not staring at her breasts and making women feel comfortable around me -- and so are millions of other men. It's not hard, but it is something we men should be aware of.

Third, you're right. I do believe her when she says that people stare at her breasts (hell, I've checked them out myself) and that it makes her uncomfortable when she notices. I don't see any reason to disbelieve her. You say that women have brushed your arms and grabbed your ass -- why should I not take you at your word? It seems like something that could totally happen. How would you feel if I said to you "Ha, no woman has ever grabbed your ass. Quit being a drama queen"? That's effectively what you just said about my coworker. I don't have any evidence that shows she's a liar -- and neither do you, by the way -- but I have plenty of evidence that what she says is true from her perspective.

You're right about another thing: my responsibility as a manager is to listen to everything and make good judgment calls. I'm not clear on where you think I'm making poor judgment calls. I have literally done nothing but listen to my coworker's thoughts (which I assume falls under the definition of "everything") and have asked for opinions regarding her statement. I haven't taken any action, I haven't fired anyone, I haven't accused anyone of improper behavior. Where is my poor judgment?

Nowhere. I haven't made any poor judgments. If anything, actually stopping to think about her comment and the ramifications is a sign of progress, that the status quo can be improved.

I'm sorry you've experienced sexual harassment. It's a terrible thing to feel uncomfortable going to your work. I don't know what I would do in your situation, but I owe it to myself and to my team to consider what I might do if it happened to me. Don't you agree? Or do you think I should just sweep it under the rug and ignore it?

P.S. I said nothing about culture and diversity or the race/ethnicity of my friend. I'm not sure where that came from. But I don't disagree with you. It's hard to mix cultures. But surely we can try to ensure that everyone is on their best behavior, yes?

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