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Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

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Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#181

Post by beeworker »

picks_at_nits wrote: post #176
beeworker wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right I don't see anything wrong with the situation as presented. It's funny, guy has some balls to ask for a date after that. I'll agree he was pretty stupid about it. But I see all the time much stupider advances that actually get accepted instead of rejected. I'd say forgive and forget but I don't see anything to forgive. Asking for a date is how you get dates , even if the context for asking is unusual. I'…

Your argument seems to be, "If only I would appreciate how good this is for him, I would stop worrying about whether his choices are toxic for anyone else." Am I missing some relevant nuänce?

I don't think that's it. One should worry about toxic choices. I just don't think a culture of asking people out is toxic. Something I do find toxic is an environment of conformity that imagines itself so fragile that it overreacts to the slightest deviation from what those in power say as if it were an existential threat.

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#182

Post by jackmaney »

beeworker wrote: post #168
picks_at_nits wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, my sociopathic HR lawyers says that if you decline to hire someone, and then any one of your employees hit on them, you are exposing your company to a lawsuit alleging that they were qualified, but you elected not to hire them to pave the ay for hitting on them without any repercussions, e.g. embarrassment if they turn you down and tell all your colleagues that you hit on them. Guard against this possibility is…

You're right I don't see anything wrong with the situation as presented. It's funny, guy has some balls to ask for a date after that. I'll agree he was pretty stupid about it. But I see all the time much stupider advances that actually get accepted instead of rejected. I'd say forgive and forget but I don't see anything to forgive. Asking for a date is how you get dates , even if the context for asking is unusual. I'…

> I'd like for shy men to still be able to hear the worst thing that'll happen is "she'll say 'lol no, loser'", but now the worst thing that can happen is she'll be so offended she'll throw a fit and publicly name you and destroy your career.

Context is important. Asking a stranger out for a date at a bar has a worst case scenario of hearing "no". Asking someone out whom you just rejected for a job listing has a very, very different worst case scenario.

For fuck's sake, did I really have to just spell that out?

> why should sociopathic lawyers get to decide what risks are actually there or not?

Sociopathic or not, employment lawyers have a lot to say about liability and risk for business because they know the relevant laws very well and know how to make persuasive arguments in court for corner cases where precedent isn't entirely clear.

Again, did I actually have to spell that out for you?

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#183

Post by ircmaxell »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #169
ircmaxell wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't hire nor value 10x engineers. So no problem there. I hire and value engineers that elevate those around them to 10x. And this behavior lowers people, not elevates. So no, that person is not a valuable asset. He's the very definition of a liability.

Your comment sounds good but that's it. It's flawed. You don't hire 10x just people who make other people 10x? Then that person you just hired is 10x. The person is clearly a liability, it's still possible he's an asset. In simple business terms you have a guy who'll get you sued for 1 million but will make you 10 million. That person while a douche is still a valuable asset. Chances of that ever being the case or an…

> You don't hire 10x just people who make other people 10x? Then that person you just hired is 10x.

The point was more that I value a person's ability to lift those around them much higher than their abilities to outperform them. It's hard to scale one person. But one person who can help scale an entire team is infinitely more valuable.

> In simple business terms you have a guy who'll get you sued for 1 million but will make you 10 million.

He's not a liability because of potential lawsuits. He's a liability because he brings the team down (antics like this do have a huge impact on the rest of the team).

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#184

Post by johnnyfaehell »

mikeash wrote: post #179
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"which is an odd way of describing a culture that punishes abuse of power" The guy wasn't abusing his power. He was being a fucking weirdo, after rejecting her for a job. So that power dynamic was over. Now he's being very unprofessional, weird, creepy, and a whole bunch of other things. Also outrage culture, we're talking about a culture where someone got fired for making jokes about "forking" another guys repo and…

People keep saying that there's no power dynamic because she already got rejected. I don't get it. Interview decisions can change. People can interview for a different position at the same company. It's not as straightforward as everybody seems to want it to be. We are not talking about a culture where someone got fired for "forking" jokes. That may be the culture, but it's completely unrelated to the issue being dis…

"People keep saying that there's no power dynamic because she already got rejected. I don't get it. Interview decisions can change. People can interview for a different position at the same company. It's not as straightforward as everybody seems to want it to be."

Very unlikely for a start up that'll you'll interview again for a different position. They would just offer you the other position. Also very unlikely is a rejection turned into acceptance.

"We are not talking about a culture where someone got fired for "forking" jokes. That may be the culture, but it's completely unrelated to the issue being discussed here."

That is exactly what the person was talking about and this thread is very much the same. A bunch of people outraged because they should be.

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#185

Post by jackmaney »

Frondo wrote: post #166
jackmaney wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No attempt has been made to bring someone else in (either internally or a new hire) to understand the algorithm and the code behind it? Even if this guy is obnoxious, it's smart to have a back up plan in case he leaves.

From what I've seen, people in that position almost never leave. It seems like for those folks, the most important thing is to be irreplacable. They like being needed, they like being a key person in the operation, more than they like money or doing a good job.

Even so, what if the obnoxious programmer gets hit by a bus? What if a critical production issue crops up just after he gets ill and takes PTO/sick leave for several days?

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#186

Post by [deleted] »

Frondo wrote: post #166
jackmaney wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No attempt has been made to bring someone else in (either internally or a new hire) to understand the algorithm and the code behind it? Even if this guy is obnoxious, it's smart to have a back up plan in case he leaves.

From what I've seen, people in that position almost never leave. It seems like for those folks, the most important thing is to be irreplacable. They like being needed, they like being a key person in the operation, more than they like money or doing a good job.

[deleted]

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#187

Post by johnnyfaehell »

ircmaxell wrote: post #183
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment sounds good but that's it. It's flawed. You don't hire 10x just people who make other people 10x? Then that person you just hired is 10x. The person is clearly a liability, it's still possible he's an asset. In simple business terms you have a guy who'll get you sued for 1 million but will make you 10 million. That person while a douche is still a valuable asset. Chances of that ever being the case or an…

> You don't hire 10x just people who make other people 10x? Then that person you just hired is 10x. The point was more that I value a person's ability to lift those around them much higher than their abilities to outperform them. It's hard to scale one person. But one person who can help scale an entire team is infinitely more valuable. > In simple business terms you have a guy who'll get you sued for 1 million but w…

> The point was more that I value a person's ability to lift those around them much higher than their abilities to outperform them. It's hard to scale one person. But one person who can help scale an entire team is infinitely more valuable.

It seems like while trying to dislike 10x you fundamentally want 10x. All those things are in my opinion what 10x is, they bring 10x more value to the team. Some may be 10x because they literally code faster and better, or they could be 10x because their code helps other people also code faster (I suspect the two are pretty well linked), or they could just be the leader who gives them more confidence to do stuff, etc.

10x may or may not be a myth. I don't think it is, I just don't think it's someone who codes 10x faster than everyone else. I think they just make the entire team better. I also think someone who is 10x one place isn't always going to be 10x in another team due to team dynamics. I.E. the team also makes them better.

> He's a liability because he brings the team down (antics like this do have a huge impact on the rest of the team).

While I get what you mean, I don't see how the team fits in to this. It's not like it was at a team event, team were involved. They most likely will never know this happened. This could just literally be a once off weird thing the guy does while being a cool guy just as much as it could be that he's an around weirdo who does weird things and is constantly belittling people.

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#188

Post by aggieben »

jackmaney wrote: post #182
beeworker wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right I don't see anything wrong with the situation as presented. It's funny, guy has some balls to ask for a date after that. I'll agree he was pretty stupid about it. But I see all the time much stupider advances that actually get accepted instead of rejected. I'd say forgive and forget but I don't see anything to forgive. Asking for a date is how you get dates , even if the context for asking is unusual. I'…

> I'd like for shy men to still be able to hear the worst thing that'll happen is "she'll say 'lol no, loser'", but now the worst thing that can happen is she'll be so offended she'll throw a fit and publicly name you and destroy your career. Context is important. Asking a stranger out for a date at a bar has a worst case scenario of hearing "no". Asking someone out whom you just rejected for a job listing has a very…

It's worth adding, too: aside from the legal liability angle, what about what the invitation to a romantic encounter does to that applicant for the rest of the interview? Now the rest of the interview, from her perspective, is all about that dude's romantic interest in her, and no longer a professional encounter. It's all downhill from there. If she gets hired, how can she possibly work without the pressure of thinking that her job or advancement depends on her response to that guy's advances? If she doesn't get hired, how can she possibly think she was fairly treated?

I don't have an inherent problem with coworkers asking each other out on dates, or within a professional context in general, but doing it in an interview is beyond stupid.

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#189

Post by novaleaf »

ihsw wrote: post #5

* Say no. * Forward copies of emails to the company's leadership/HR department. * Keep printed copies of the emails handy in case he decides to retaliate with lawyers. * Keep your own legal counsel on speed-dial. * Move on with your life. There's not much you can do from a legal standpoint, with regards to grievance/redress. Escalating the situation through contacting his boss/HR carries a risk, even though you have…

Come on, turn the cheek. Sheeze. If you are really feeling vindictive, just forward the OP, that will make him think twice next time.

Edit, removed sarcasm

Re: Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

#190

Post by novaleaf »

novaleaf wrote: post #189
ihsw wrote: post #5

* Say no. * Forward copies of emails to the company's leadership/HR department. * Keep printed copies of the emails handy in case he decides to retaliate with lawyers. * Keep your own legal counsel on speed-dial. * Move on with your life. There's not much you can do from a legal standpoint, with regards to grievance/redress. Escalating the situation through contacting his boss/HR carries a risk, even though you have…

Come on, turn the cheek. Sheeze. If you are really feeling vindictive, just forward the OP, that will make him think twice next time. Edit, removed sarcasm

And if it isn't clear, yeah, I think forwarding this to the company he has the potential of ruining this guy's life.

Call me soft hearted, I guess.

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