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Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

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Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#11

Post by CPLX »

dollaaron wrote: post #8
comrade1 wrote: post #3

Are there ways to reduce the size of the block chain? Or will we get to the point where only large service providers can hold the block chain? I ask because I was maintaining my own wallet for awhile but stopped because the block chain database was getting unwieldy - it would take up to a week to resync if I ever turned my wallet software off for a significant amount of time. You know though... I actually don't care.…

I believe there are proposals to allow pruning the blockchain, but I'm not 100% sure on the details. To guarantee a transaction goes through you have to wait for it to be confirmed, but most transactions really aren't that important/high risk, so beyond checking that the address does actually have the money, it's instantaneous. Many payment processors (I know Bitpay has this option) actually take the 0 confirmation t…

> actually using bitcoin (that you already have) to buy things is a better experience than using credit cards

It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy.

It's not good that I can't demand a return or have recourse in the event of fraud. And it's not a benefit that with bitcoin I have to spend the money first (to buy bitcoin) and wonder if it will hold its value, versus just buying stuff when I feel like it on credit and covering the transaction within 30 days at no interest cost.

I know there are a lot of people who really want your above quoted statement to be true. But, for now and the forseeable future, it isn't.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#13

Post by padelt »

comrade1 wrote: post #3

Are there ways to reduce the size of the block chain? Or will we get to the point where only large service providers can hold the block chain? I ask because I was maintaining my own wallet for awhile but stopped because the block chain database was getting unwieldy - it would take up to a week to resync if I ever turned my wallet software off for a significant amount of time. You know though... I actually don't care.…

There is the concept of pruning in the original paper[1] which basically removes all fully-spent transaction trails. That does not yield a reasonable upper bound on the size though[2]. Beyond pruning, it seems you need to trust another network component (external wallet, server).

[1] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability#Storage [2] http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4650/upper-limit-...

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#14

Post by alvarosm »

zmanian wrote: post #9
softdev12 wrote: post #2

This is interesting because it's the first time I've heard about 21 and they have raised $116 million pre-launch. Given that companies who've raised an order of magnitude less are all over the news, it's surprising they have been so stealth. I'm also still not clear what 21 does. According to the article they are building out the blockchain into the internet of things (IoT). That sounds really vague. Plus, the articl…

It sounds like some variant of the hardware Bitcoin bank idea that has been floating around the valley. The rough sketch of the idea is -Hardware device runs a full security bitcoin node in your house -Provides a multisig for your mobile wallet. -Automatically moves savings into cold storage -Provides a basic environment for implementing crypto banking features

yeah, another bitcoin pipe dream... what's needed is probably something like integrating a wallet+bitreserve+exchange+payment processor in a single business. And then forking/enhancing btc itself. Some of the top btc companies have got ridiculous investment rounds that could be used towards that goal, easily.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#15

Post by dollaaron »

CPLX wrote: post #11
dollaaron wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there are proposals to allow pruning the blockchain, but I'm not 100% sure on the details. To guarantee a transaction goes through you have to wait for it to be confirmed, but most transactions really aren't that important/high risk, so beyond checking that the address does actually have the money, it's instantaneous. Many payment processors (I know Bitpay has this option) actually take the 0 confirmation t…

> actually using bitcoin (that you already have) to buy things is a better experience than using credit cards It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's not good that I can't demand a return or have recourse in the event of fraud. And it's not a benefit that with bitco…

> It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy.

It's much easier to take your phone, open an app, and scan a QR code, than to take out your credit card, transcribe a 16 digit number, check the expiration date, and enter the CSC (or is it CVC?).

Sure, for websites where your information is already saved, or if you leave all your credit card information saved in the browser, then this isn't easier, but they're still pretty comparable in my opinion. Even if it was slightly more work (which I personally disagree with), I would find that worth not having my credit card information saved by who knows how many third parties.

> It's not good that I can't demand a return or have recourse in the event of fraud.

I've never had to go to my credit card company for a refund, since most places I buy from will take refunds with a receipt or proof of purchase (and if they don't, why would I buy from them?). Fraudulent purchases are another issue, but the risk of fraud is lower with bitcoin versus credit cards (no single number that allows access to all funds, a properly secured wallet is impossible to steal, although I know wallet security is still not the easiest thing to have).

> And it's not a benefit that with bitcoin I have to spend the money first (to buy bitcoin) and wonder if it will hold its value, versus just buying stuff when I feel like it on credit and covering the transaction within 30 days at no interest cost.

This is a very real problem, and what I think will truly determine whether bitcoin gains anything near a large following.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#16

Post by giant_squid »

softdev12 wrote: post #2

This is interesting because it's the first time I've heard about 21 and they have raised $116 million pre-launch. Given that companies who've raised an order of magnitude less are all over the news, it's surprising they have been so stealth. I'm also still not clear what 21 does. According to the article they are building out the blockchain into the internet of things (IoT). That sounds really vague. Plus, the articl…

Their jobs page provides some hints as to what they're up to: https://21.co/#jobs

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#19

Post by hnnewguy »

dollaaron wrote: post #15
CPLX wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> actually using bitcoin (that you already have) to buy things is a better experience than using credit cards It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's not good that I can't demand a return or have recourse in the event of fraud. And it's not a benefit that with bitco…

> It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's much easier to take your phone, open an app, and scan a QR code, than to take out your credit card, transcribe a 16 digit number, check the expiration date, and enter the CSC (or is it CVC?). Sure, for websites where your in…

>Fraudulent purchases are another issue, but the risk of fraud is lower with bitcoin versus credit cards

The CC companies have full control over the transactions. They can stop and/or reverse charges. As far as the consumer is concerned, there is very little risk of fraud.

Re: Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

#20

Post by markkat »

Animats wrote: post #18

If they raised over $100M, why do they need Bitcoin? I'd assume they intend to have their own coin. Fewer headaches.

It would be very difficult to get another coin to the level of adoption that bitcoin has. Many have tried, and none have come close.
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