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Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

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Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#371

Post by hashed »

quadrangle wrote: post #342
lettergram wrote: post #67

I don't want to openly doubt rape, but jesus, several times over several months? Call the police, or at least avoid a situation if possible. Clearly she is willing to talk about it, so where's the police report? Also, every time I read one of these articles I cringe. There's a big movement to "include women in tech", but it's interesting to note that (in my experience) there is a large group (bordering on majority) o…

It is inherently bad to lack reasonable gender diversity in a field where there is nothing inherent about gender to the field of work. Lack of diversity inherently causes problems because diversity itself brings valuable perspectives to any field. Look at this (especially the graph they link to): http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/business/16digi.html?_r=0 The lack of women in tech is serious problem, and you are part…

Diversity doesn't bring anything, law or finance got more diversity than tech and yet they are one of the most stagnant and extortionist fields ever. The tech industry on the other hand is the most innovative and value creating industry of the last 50 years, all done by mostly man. So no, diversity doesn't magically create any "valuable perspective", the evidence is overwhelmingly to the opposite.

The reason there are no women in tech is because it's hard and they don't want to do it, same in physical jobs and in general in any value creating jobs as opposed to caring/service/value transfer jobs, basically the same things women used to do at home in the traditional family. Blaming the man in that industry as if they are worst than say lawyers or financiers or doctors is just bullshit and got no evidence. Women have made their choice, it is up to them to invest in studying tech and do something in the industry, stop shaming other people for women problems.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#372

Post by meowface »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #273
meowface wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are valid points to both sides. Yes, clearly there is a problem (I don't think the problem is unique to tech), but if you constantly live in fear of the consequences of actions which you never take, you're really stuck in an endless cycle. If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Especia…

> I think there are valid points to both sides. What is it you think are the two sides here?

Whether or not to report harassment incidents to management or HR at a company. From the devil's advocate position, if you don't report something and the company is completely unaware of it, how could it ever be dealt with?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#373

Post by abalone »

pekk wrote: post #344
abalone wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody argued that that isn't rape, but that's because you've folded in what sounds like a physical threat. "Kick you out right now and you can live on the street" sounds more violent than "have sex with me or I initiate divorce proceedings". The question is whether there's a distinction between economic coercion and rape. rayiner argues no, it's just as coercive as "pulling a knife", but most state laws (I believe)…

What I'm asking is: what is the point of trying to argue that certain kinds of coerced sex are not rape? I wonder why HN is so sensitive to this line of questioning that they want to censor it outright. Are people emotionally attached to using certain forms of coercion to get sex, while thinking that it's okay or "not rape" because they aren't holding a knife?

You're responding to me so I'm going to assume you're talking about me, even though I just stated that sexual extortion is a felony, really bad and definitely not "okay".

Your question is like asking what's the point of arguing why certain kinds of homicide are not first degree murder. If you collapse distinctions in an effort to take a "stronger" stance, you might consider that it actually weakens the severity of the gravest charge. Also, it may have the effect of inhibiting understanding of the specific scenarios at hand and thus crafting strategies for targeting them, which is my motivation here.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#374

Post by hashed »

grey-area wrote: post #30
littletimmy wrote: post #19

She was raped several times over several months? What on earth? Why isn't this being reported to the police? There is a whole department of law enforcement (funded by our money) that deals precisely with issues of violence. Just use it instead of blogging about your troubles.

Why isn't this being reported to the police? That's pretty much what the entire article is about - the risks of taking this before a court or even just bringing it up internally in a company; the potential damage to reputation, career and wellbeing can outweigh the slim possibility of justice (and it is a slim one, because often there are no witnesses). Just talking about this would be a huge decision for anyone, let…

Sorry, but I can't trust someone who doesn't want to go to the police but has no problem spreading it over the internet for everybody to judge. It makes the police to be some monsters who got no clue how to handle rape, which is simple defamation, it risks other women who now has to deal with a rapist going around freely because the "victim" here is too precious to do something about it. If a woman have no problem writing articles on the internet there should be no excuse not going to the police. I am sure by now people who worked with her knows anything about it, so there is no "reputation" excuse. This is not problem with sexism in tech, this is a heinous crime that should be dealt with like any other serious crime. This woman is just an attention grabber and nothing more than that, the rape claims are false.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#375

Post by yummyfajitas »

foldr wrote: post #368
yummyfajitas wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post completely misses the point, but I guess ad hominem attacks are easier than actually using reason. If you reread what I wrote, you'll discover I'm merely pointing out either a) an uncomfortable implication of a line of reasoning or b) a logical flaw in said line of reasoning or c) an unstated premise. I took no actual position myself.

jrochkind1 correctly pointed out that divorce doesn't involve sexual coercion, which seems a good reason not to regard it as an instance of rape.

The issue is not whether the label "rape" should be applied. The issue is whether this line of reasoning is a valid argument for why something should be a crime:

"If you $X that's clearly $CRIME. If you $Y, some people wouldn't call that $CRIME (and the law wouldn't either). But I'd rather get $X then $Y. So why do we consider the latter not as bad?"

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#377

Post by jmathes »

unimportant wrote: post #295

>I have been raped by a colleague — not just once, but several times over months. Stopped reading there - obvious feminist propaganda.

That is a monumentally stupid thing to say, and that's coming from a guy who's an active reader of /r/mensrights. I know the author personally and she's telling the truth.

Women with careers who accuse others of rape are telling the truth. False rape claims always come from someone who believes she stands to gain, and women with careers ruin their careers by reporting rape. Because of mouthbreathers like you. Go climb back under your rock.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#378

Post by jquery »

ForHackernews wrote: post #223
mcantelon wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it doubtful that tech is worse than, for example, the finance industry (with its rich history of decadence and debauchery). I also find it "interesting" that the tech industry seems to have replaced the finance industry (whose shenanigans put the West into recession) as the focus of media critique.

> I also find it "interesting" that the tech industry seems to have replaced the finance industry (whose shenanigans put the West into recession) as the focus of media critique. Guess who's the next group of rich people thinking their bubble's never going to pop?

Who?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#379

Post by exodust »

MrScruff wrote: post #341
exodust wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. She has all sorts of fictionalised anecdotes going on in her article. Can I know for sure? No. But I trust my BS meter more than this troublemaker. She describes herself as a "troublemaker" on her Twitter profile, which may or may not mean she makes things up to get attention.

FYI, you're responding to the OP. And whatever your thoughts on her article, perhaps you should just keep them to yourself on the off chance that, you know, you might be wrong. She mentioned she can produce evidence for the DEFCON story elsewhere in this thread so you might want to get that $500 ready.

> you might want to get that $500 ready

She said the cameras weren't rolling.

And I said I wanted recorded evidence, so my $500 is safe. The reason it's safe is not because the cameras weren't rolling but because 24 men never chanted "show us your tits". Who knows, maybe one idiot in the crowd did... but 24 didn't.

I just watched some of her talk on youtube, and she has the crowd in her hand. She owns the topic and gets laughs and respect. Even the youtube comments are all positive.

If you ask me, she seems like a bit of a wild child. She's cheeky, she doesn't give a f--- about anything. She's smart. And the crowd is into her stuff.

If the "show us your tits" incident actually happened, it may well have been a failed attempt at extreme irony or bad-taste humour because of her obvious talent at the subject matter rather than any literal "sexist remark at a woman because she's a woman". I'm not defending such behaviour, but with everything like this, intent and context needs to be closely examined.

She's come out and used it as example of "sexism in tech" when it might well be an example of "robotics geeks showing respect by way of a clumsy and deliberate disregard of civilised discourse.". Perhaps it was an attempt at nodding to the Las Vegas themed "bad behaviour" after dark, combined with a nerdy attempt at being funny, all in an attempt to get the attention of this girl they actually admire.

Context and intent is everything. And her article doesn't take that into account. This is the reason she writes below in caps "it's all okay we worked it out"... meaning the incident at DEFCON.

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