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Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

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Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#301

Post by yummyfajitas »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #257
yummyfajitas wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I'd rather get punched in the face then lose a job I worked really hard to get. So why do we consider the latter not as bad? This is strangely reminiscent of a lot of arguments that men's rights activists make. Namely, they'd rather be raped than lose 50% of their income to paternity fraud. They even attach a prefix to the word rape - "divorce rape" instead of "white collar rape". I take it you also support their…

One involves sexual coercion, the other does not, that's the clear principle 'separating' the two, since rape means coercing someone to have sex. I'm surprised that's not clear. I understand that criminal law appropriately distinguishes between different levels of severity in harmful and socially undesirable behavior, one way or another. But when people start trying to finely parse what kinds of sexual coercion are '…

Your post completely misses the point, but I guess ad hominem attacks are easier than actually using reason.

If you reread what I wrote, you'll discover I'm merely pointing out either a) an uncomfortable implication of a line of reasoning or b) a logical flaw in said line of reasoning or c) an unstated premise. I took no actual position myself.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#302

Post by JohnBooty »

logic404 wrote: post #208
JohnBooty wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From one heterosexual man to another, surely we can see that we're in a different situation than this woman was. Also, > Young associate worked for this partner I don't know how the legal profession works. But: 1. It's quite likely that leaving firm as a young associate carries a huge negative connotation. In other words, her choices might not have been "give a blowjob" or "quit and find another job." It might have b…

From one heterosexual man to another, surely we can see that we're in a different situation than this woman was. I am genuinely curious about this point. Why are men in a different situation? Couldn't a homosexual boss want to coerce blowjobs from male subordinates?

  > I am genuinely curious about this point. Why are men 
  > in a different situation? Couldn't a homosexual boss
  > want to coerce blowjobs from male subordinates?
Absolutely, and of course that would also be quite wrong. And I am sure that's a thing that happens sometimes, unfortunately.

I only mentioned it because the poster I responded to had said, "I'm sure that as a heterosexual man, regardless of my financial circumstances, no one could coerce me into giving blowjobs" and I thought it important to say that there are different dynamics involved there.

If a male boss tried to coerce a male employee into sex, the male victim would be much more likely to respond with physical force, so it's less likely to happen in the first place. The male victim would also be more likely to be viewed as unambiguously victimized, whereas in a male-on-female situation there's likely to be a lot of well, she probably wanted it type speculation and/or congratulation of the male aggressor.

In some senses it might even be more difficult for a male victim. A male victim might be viewed as "weak" for letting it happen in the first place. Whatever the case I'm sure we can agree that it's quite a different dynamic, so the original poster's well, as a man, I'd never let this happen to meeee is not really a useful road to travel down.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#303

Post by JohnBooty »

BadassFractal wrote: post #185
unepipe wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forced oral sex is considered rape. This isn't feminist redefinition. You think if a gun is to your head and you give a blowjob that is sexual harassment? Think about someone who has a family and needs their income, and what this kind of situation puts them in.

For the sake of argument, let me play the devil's advocate here and do a bit of armchair philosophy. Let's say I have a family, many mouths to feed, maybe it's the last job I could possibly get in my small town in the middle of nowhere. I hate the job, it sucks the life out of me, I don't want to do it, but I'm forced to "against my will" every single day because otherwise my family will starve to death. If I lose it…

I don't understand this. I don't think anybody is suggesting that nonsexual activities be classified as rape.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#304

Post by JohnBooty »

code_reuse wrote: post #206
unepipe wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forced oral sex is also by definition rape. And is it consent, despite performing a sexual act, if a "no" causes you severe harm (in this case financial/career harm) and you truly didn't want to do that sexual act, but you acted out of fear and coercion?

How is it forced sex if he/she can simply quit and then go get another job ? I mean I think that it's sexual harassment and a horrendous crime, but it's not the same thing as rape. It sounds like the young lady experienced sexual harassment and decided that it was worth it to willingfuly have sex with a coworker in order to continue to prop up a financial relationship so that she wouldn't have to deal with the burden…

  > In America though you can go work at McDonalds if you
  > don't have a prior felony record or even go to a
  > homeless shelter.
It's worth noting that there's an extremely high incidence of sexual assault in homeless shelters.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#305

Post by emj »

elmin wrote: post #37
mrbig4545 wrote: post #29

I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and I've just never seen it. Either way, it's not on and it needs to stop

I'm in America, and I've certainly never had a conversation where this level of sexism was mentioned. The worst I've heard is a creepy coworker who likes to give back rubs. For all the reasons in the article, I think it's something which is not discussed as much as it should be. All I can say, is anyone who does this stuff should not be employed anywhere.

I've heard a girl talk about her rape in a friendly environment where we were all good friends, it became awkward and impossible to go on. If I was in her shoes I would never bring it up again, so the chances of hearing stuff like these is slim.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#306

Post by xtrumanx »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #293
xtrumanx wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's not what I'm saying but I don't think I can safely ignore the rest of your comment even if it is based on an incorrect interpretation of my comment. Where'd you get the inkling that I thought it was important to argue whether to word rape is the right word? Please quote the section of my comment that gave you that idea. You've made a baseless assumption of what I was saying and went on a tirade. This is wh…

> Where'd you get the inkling that I thought it was important to argue whether to word rape is the right word? The part where you engaged in argument about whether rape was the right word (for some hypothetical undescribed situation), arguing it was important not to use it unless it was... was where I got that idea. So, the whole comment. I'm sorry if I got the wrong idea, and at any rate I acknowledge I was reacting…

To be clear, by "I don't think I can safely ignore the rest of your comment" I meant I shouldn't let a comment like your stand unanswered.

You're accusatory tone set me in a light that made me look like The Bad Guy™. I don't like looking like The Bad Guy™ so and having already been downvoted, for the "safety" of my reputation, I felt the need to respond to your comment.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#307

Post by cstrahan »

randyrand wrote: post #214
BadassFractal wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the sake of argument, let me play the devil's advocate here and do a bit of armchair philosophy. Let's say I have a family, many mouths to feed, maybe it's the last job I could possibly get in my small town in the middle of nowhere. I hate the job, it sucks the life out of me, I don't want to do it, but I'm forced to "against my will" every single day because otherwise my family will starve to death. If I lose it…

Okay, more devils advocate. Your boss comes into the office to fire you. You really really need your job or you and your family starve. You really really don't want to. In fact you would do anything but stoop to this level. But you have no choice and you know he is into you. Your family is starving. You decide to ask your boss, "I'll fuck you if I keep the job." He agrees. It's still sex against your will. You're onl…

That sounds more like prostitution.

I think the important element is this: did person A attempt to coerce person B into having sex? If yes, then A raped B.

Let's apply that to your scenario. Is the boss trying to coerce the employee into having sex? No, the boss is firing the employ because

* Maybe they're a shitty employee, or

* Perhaps because the company has dwindling resources, or

* Fill in the blank.

In your scenario, the employee came up with a plan to try to sell sex in exchange keeping their job. That's prostitution: "the act of having sex in exchange for money." As a boss, I would decline that offer because, among other things, it would probably look like I was threatening to take away the employees job (i.e. coercion) if I wasn't given sex - even if that was never my intent.

If, on the other hand, the boss implied or suggested that the employee could keep their job in exchange for sex, that's coercion and is therefore rape.

It's not about "not wanting to do something", it's about coercion. If I'm legitimately fired and I offer sex in exchange for my job, that _is_ my will. If someone threatens (express of implied) to take my job away unless I have sex with them, that's their will, they're coercing me to have sex with them, and that's rape.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#308

Post by grey-area »

littletimmy wrote: post #40
grey-area wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't this being reported to the police? That's pretty much what the entire article is about - the risks of taking this before a court or even just bringing it up internally in a company; the potential damage to reputation, career and wellbeing can outweigh the slim possibility of justice (and it is a slim one, because often there are no witnesses). Just talking about this would be a huge decision for anyone, let…

OK, I get the point you are making. My take on this is the following: The problem of someone using another person in a cruel and harsh manner will not be solved until you resolve the problem of massive power differentials in society. In general, when a man has money/power equal to the next 100000 people (literally worth 100000 times more than the next person in our capitalistic language), why on earth wouldn't he thi…

OK, I get the point you are making.

Thanks for listening.

The solution is NOT to see women differently

I agree with you there, and think many feminists would too - people just want to be treated the same.

The unfortunate reality is that they are not. We should change that.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#309

Post by cstrahan »

tracker1 wrote: post #209
smt88 wrote: post #2

I didn't understand what this was about, based on the title. As it turned out, it's an incredibly interesting, important, and sad essay on the severe consequences that exist for women who fight for their own physical/emotional safety (and the safety of others). If you want to know how people can repeatedly rape coworkers and get away with it, you should read this article.

I think it all sucks... on the one hand, being falsly accused of something because someone made a bad decision in a moment, or exaggerated is pretty bad. * Two people get drunk and hook up after a party... afterwards the woman cries rape. (there's a difference between rape and a bad decision) * A person asks another person they work with out. (this isn't harassment, though once a firm no is given they should not ask…

> * Two people get drunk and hook up after a party... afterwards the woman cries rape. (there's a difference between rape and a bad decision)

Did I miss somewhere in the post where the regret of a (mutually) drunken one-night-stand was equated with rape? Or are you bringing this up because you believe such occurrences happen often?

If it's the latter, would you mind sharing sources? I've heard people suggest that these things happen (where the "victim" was either embarrassed of sleeping with the person, or perhaps was ashamed due to their morals), but I have never seen a man or women ever claim that they were raped when it was in reality just "a bad decision" ... which makes me wonder if the mentioning of the scenario you give is just a common device for distracting from the topic of rape.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#310

Post by eli_gottlieb »

rayiner wrote: post #56
abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

>2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police on her boss.

I feel like this is the kind of brave move we'd want to reward, for helping to clean up the whole firm.

Ok, I'm naive. So be it.

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