Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower • Hacker News Board

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#281

Post by jrochkind1 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 7:18 AM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #278

jrochkind1 wrote: post #253

Wow. This is such a good piece. Seriously, this is incredibly well-thought out and well-written, in a very intentional way. Thanks to the author. I am pleased that it's on the HN front page. And I was at first pleased to see such a long comments thread, that people were interested in discussing it. But man, this discussion is depressing me. Arguing about the legal definition of rape, really, that's what HN feels like…

The discussion on the definition is because we're shocked that someone could be repeatedly raped without calling the cops. From accounts I've heard, rape seems much more serious than, say, being mugged or stabbed. If someone were to say they were mugged several times by a colleague, we'd ask why the cops weren't called. Hence it's terribly upsetting to hear a colleague repeatedly does worse. But if the definition of…

"From accounts I've heard, rape seems much more serious than, say, being mugged or stabbed."

For real, bro?

So let me get this straight, you're either upset that someone was mugged or stabbed without calling the cops, or you're upset (but maybe not as upset) that a colleague has done something worse than mugging or stabbing (a colleague of yours? that you know of? Have you considered calling the police?)

You can 'see the issue' with $500 bar tabs, but not with muggings? Or wait, by 'you can see the issue' you mean you don't believe the author, you think she's lying or confused when she writes 'rape', unless she says that she didn't really mean rape, in which case now you 'see the issue' and are wiling to support doing something about it? If you don't believe the author, it would be less confusing if you just said so. Or is it that you're only willing to do something about $500 bar tabs if you can first convince the person subject to them to stop calling it a mugging, cause that's the important thing here, eliminating that mugging/bar-tab confusion which is a scourge on our society? Me, I'd start out assuming if the author wrote rape she didn't mean a $500 bar tab. But the ironic thing is that most of the essay isn't actually about rape.

Man. Yeah, I'm not contributing to a useful conversation, I realize. I have no idea how the author manages to engage in this sort of conversation -- which the OP article is, an engagement in this sort of conversation, as well as the author's participation in this reddit thread -- while maintaining such an even temper, and always making the most charitable possible interpretation of everyone's comments (or at least successfully pretending to). I am impressed. I would need to work a lot harder than apparently I'm willing to, to pull that off.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#282

Post by frandroid » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 7:26 AM UTC

littletimmy wrote: post #25

tomlock wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many many reasons why women don't report rapes to the police.

Look. That's fine. But one cannot complain about a problem all the while ignoring the main solution system that we have to address that very problem. The alternative is what many feminists seem to be doing these days, which is "I wish men were nicer..." That is borderline stupid. The world will never be a perfectly safe place. You have to report crimes, and hold people accountable, and use the mechanism for correctiv…

Reporting a rape to police is not a "main solution". What does this "resolve"? The rape will not be undone. The victim will be re-victimized multiple times: at their current and future workplaces (see "becoming a liability"); at the police station, when she is interrogated and her account is doubted; in court, when there is prosecution, and her account is doubted again; possibly in court again, when a non-guilty verdict is delivered; etc.

That's a lot of downsides to this "main solution".

Anyway, the problem is not just sexual assaults, but rape culture. Reporting rapes to police does not end rape culture. Changing the culture does, and that's what this article is challenging us to do.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#283

Post by frandroid » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 7:29 AM UTC

jobposter1234 wrote: post #231

drostie wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a much simpler definition of "rape" as "being coerced into having sex that you do not want to have." It, of course, is not the present legal definition of rape. But it's something that's easy to talk about and to use in conversation. In other words, the point is that sex is put into a separate sphere of activity from other ordinarily-pleasant experiences and given a dignity which is not special to those other…

Is sex somehow fundamentally different than every* other act that it should be treated so differently? * Every. If I used my power at work to make you eat a literal lunch of feces, is that more or less egregious? I know what my gut would say, but why? Isn't the core bad behavior the concept of abrogating another human's free will? Why is sex in this other classification? Edit: put another way, why is it that being co…

Yes, because we live in a rape culture, but not in a coerced murder culture.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#284

Post by datashovel » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 7:30 AM UTC

bluehat wrote: post #271

datashovel wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as an addendum to that: If your partner didn't see it, it didn't happen. This would force the pair to stick together at all times if they were at all concerned for their well-being.

This sounds pretty shitty to live. I would like to think we can do better.

I completely agree. It's not ideal. I wish all people respected one another and understood social and personal boundaries. The comments here reflect my attempt to reconcile the fact that that's obviously not something we can count on. But in terms of the big picture I agree that "awareness" is an important hurdle.

So the reasoning goes: It appears there needs to be some mechanism in place to hold people accountable for their actions. Not that we don't want the overarching goal to teach people how to respect others, but that's a life lesson, and not necessarily something that you can put a definitive timeline on in terms of when you're going to achieve your goal.

I think a real-world solution needs to recognize that you can't guarantee that all employees will understand or follow your guidelines for how to behave in the workplace. So it follows that part of the plan needs to incorporate accountability. It's far more difficult to hold someone accountable when all you have is hearsay. With 3rd party testimony, however, a company is going to have more data to use when trying to figure out / arbitrate a dispute or investigate a claim of harassment.

So, in principle I like the idea that people have mentioned where everyone should be responsible for everyone else. In theory this looks like it's a great idea, but in practice if this is your only rule / policy, it makes it very difficult for people to gauge whether progress is being made, or if they'll ever accomplish their goal. When you have a specific responsibility I find it's going to be far easier for the person to comprehend and observe whether or not they're accomplishing or are on the path to accomplish their objectives of keeping the workplace safe for everyone.

Imagine if one day Larry Page sends out a memo to all Google employees, and says that he's decided to change how they operate. From today forward, "There are no longer specific jobs or goals. Instead we're all just going to concentrate on our one overarching goal. All employees are now in charge of making sure the company makes money". And that's the only direction that is given. It's one big overarching goal and everyone just needs to make sure that happens. No specific tasks are laid out for any one individual in order to make that happen. Now consider this scenario in contrast to the world at Google today where I imagine everyone, though in spirit are all working toward the single overarching goal of the company, each "cog in the wheel" has their own specific responsibilities to make that happen.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#285

Post by xtrumanx » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 7:30 AM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #267

xtrumanx wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? Of course those "everyone's a lawyer's" types are going to crawl out of the woodwork. Why not call it what it is and not give them any ammo to justify a disgusting action? This isn't the first time I've seen people on the moral highground undermine their own position by giving their…

Are you saying that it's important to argue about whether the word 'rape' is the right word or not? (For a specific occurence we have virtually no details about, what do we even have to argue about?) Why does this matter for the topic matter of the essay? For real. Why is the most important thing to discuss, in response to the issues raised in the essay, technical or legal definitions of the word 'rape'? Apparently m…

No, that's not what I'm saying but I don't think I can safely ignore the rest of your comment even if it is based on an incorrect interpretation of my comment.

Where'd you get the inkling that I thought it was important to argue whether to word rape is the right word? Please quote the section of my comment that gave you that idea. You've made a baseless assumption of what I was saying and went on a tirade.

This is why I hate these sorts of topics on HN. The community morphs into an hot-tempered accusatory group of individuals who hiss at anyone who sounds like they may not be on their side.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#286

Post by runamok » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 7:31 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Rape doesn't have to be violent. The person could have decided she was into it even though she was saying no, no, no and just proceeded. Presumably she didn't report the rape for her own reasons. I can only imagine how painful it is to revisit this without going into the gory details and be cross examined by the internet.

The sum of all the things she has dealt with are incredibly saddening to me. I have met Katy before and seen how much she did for Hacker Dojo and have a lot of respect for her.

I think the focal point for change is exactly what she is saying regarding "whistle blowers". Someone that comes forward to reveal crimes whether it be Snowden or a woman sexually harassed or raped by a colleague should be respected and not pilloried and made persona non-grata. Bring this bullshit into the light.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#287

Post by egeozcan » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 7:33 AM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #71

egeozcan wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hopefully helpful objection to the use of the word "rape" to describe anything other than "violent rape": While I understand the need to put a strong word to describe the perversity of the offence (which surely isn't less than "violent rape"), the obvious problem is "date rape" and similar are sadly not very well-known. So, when you just say "rape", many tend to think about a related but somewhat separate pr…

What language would you suggest be used instead of the word "rape"?

I'm not a native English speaker and I wouldn't bet on myself coming up with an appropriate description. However, using any word would be perfectly fine if the authors dedicate a short paragraph at the beginning explaining what they mean by the words they use, especially if they don't mean the same things most people are used to.

I keep getting down-voted, so, maybe it helps to repeat: I'm not saying that this isn't as bad as "violent rape", but we have to have a common understanding before people start coming up with useful solutions (I, for example, support systems for reporting such incidents being enforced for companies) and we do need useful solutions.

Disclaimer: I'm a guy who found someone he cares about, in such a situation. Going to police was the worst idea, ever.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#288

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 7:34 AM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #267

xtrumanx wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? Of course those "everyone's a lawyer's" types are going to crawl out of the woodwork. Why not call it what it is and not give them any ammo to justify a disgusting action? This isn't the first time I've seen people on the moral highground undermine their own position by giving their…

Are you saying that it's important to argue about whether the word 'rape' is the right word or not? (For a specific occurence we have virtually no details about, what do we even have to argue about?) Why does this matter for the topic matter of the essay? For real. Why is the most important thing to discuss, in response to the issues raised in the essay, technical or legal definitions of the word 'rape'? Apparently m…

[deleted]

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#289

Post by xtrumanx » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 7:39 AM UTC

pron wrote: post #195

xtrumanx wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? Of course those "everyone's a lawyer's" types are going to crawl out of the woodwork. Why not call it what it is and not give them any ammo to justify a disgusting action? This isn't the first time I've seen people on the moral highground undermine their own position by giving their…

I am saying that if the victim decides to call it rape because that's how it felt, my first response (nor second, nor third) would not be to discuss the finer points of the law and debate the legal use of the term. People who act maliciously don't need justification from me. But sexism is usually inadvertent, and "everyone's a lawyer" is a classic, usually innocent, response. So people who are not misogynist, but sim…

I'm not sure what the point of replying to my comment is if you're not going to answer my question to you. Here it is again if you missed it:

Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage?

I see a lot these sorts of threads end up with people talking past each other and not really responding to each other questions. Let's try not to do that. We can maybe move forward in the conversation and perhaps you can educate me on the topic. But if you don't answer straight-forward yes or now question I'm just left wondering if I should take any education I receive from you seriously.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#290

Post by frandroid » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 7:40 AM UTC

meric wrote: post #68

I feel they could have done it without making my boss feel like he was being directly threatened with a huge HR complaint. It’s a real shame for our tech culture that there is no way to get somebody tutored about what is and isn’t appropriate without also landing them in deep trouble. I'd like to add the only education available to teach people social interactions, outside of being self-taught, is PUA material, as we…

Because there was less rape when there were larger family. Right...